Was Mary a Biological Mother or a Surrogate Mother for Jesus?

[Doubting Thomas]

Most of us agree that life starts at conception. Because it does most are against such controversial methods of contraception such as “the morning after pill.” Why? It destroys life which has just begun, or at least the possibility of it. There is a small period of time between the fertilization of an egg, and the time that it becomes an embryo; just as there is a longer period of time between the time it becomes an embryo and a fetus (ca. 8 weeks).
Most conservative Protestants and Catholics are against abortion because they are against the taking of a life. Many consider it on par with murder. It is wrong.

Now, consider the reason why Christ came into the world:
Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

When we consider that Christ bore our griefs and carried our sorrows, we might do well to ask ourselves the question: how much of griefs and sorrows did he bear? Was it just from his ministry onward? Did he just empathize with us in our grief and sorrow from about age 30 to 33, or do the elderly and very young count as well? Did he bear their sorrows as well? Of course he did. If young, how young? Can infants bear pain before birth? Ask any doctor who works among those infants that are born to drug addicts and those born with fetal alcohol syndrome. Certainly they endure pain, even before they are born. Then ask the question, how far back in the pregnancy are they able to feel the pain. It is evident that there is life in the womb, and that that life starts right from the time of conception; from the time of the fertilized egg.

The traditional view of the virgin birth is that Christ was born of the virgin Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit, which naturally implies an egg being fertilized. No one thought otherwise until just recently. No one ever challenged that position.
Now some are saying that it can’t be that way.
Some say that Christ wasn’t conceived of the Holy Spirit, but rather He originated from an embryo. But that is not what the Bible says. Take that position to its logical conclusion. If that were true, then life before the embryo would not be sacred. And there would be no special reason to deny the morning after pill to those who wanted it. After all Christ was totally human, and his humanity didn’t start until after fertilization. Therefore humanity before the embryo isn’t sacred and can be done away with at a whim. Jesus did not bear the griefs and sorrows of those before that time.
SFIC at one point, said that Christ started his life at two months in the womb. If that be the case then abortions during the first two months of the first tri-semester must be alright. Life is not sacred during that time. Jesus was totally man and totally God at the same time; the God man. The time before his time in the womb, whatever that time was couldn’t have contributed to his humanity and therefore is not important and is not sacred. It doesn’t matter if it is aborted. I hope you see the logic of this.

Does God count all life as sacred or not? Did Christ bear all the grief and sorrow of mankind or not? And that would include life starting from conception. Humanity starts from conception. It starts when the egg is fertilized, before it even becomes an embryo. If the life of Christ did not begin then, then he wasn’t totally human and couldn’t totally relate to humans. He had a completely human nature in every way, and yet at the same time remained without sin. God the Holy Spirit is able to accomplish that feat. Do you believe that He can?
Something to think about.

Excellent post, DHK. :thumbs:

 

[Doubting Thomas]

I know Hebrews 10:5 states that God prepared Him a body, but where exactly does the Bible say He did that through Mary's egg?

Scripture and verse, please.

Where does it exactly say that God didn't use Mary's egg in preparing Christ's body--Scripture and verse, please.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

It seems pretty simple to me: Isaiah prophesied that a virgin would conceive. No woman can conceive other than through her own ovum being fertilised. It's pretty ludicrous to suggest that because 'conception' can = 'become pregnant' that that somehow allows for surrogacy in the Isaian prophecy. In surrogacy (as I understand the way some here are defining it), someone else conceives and the zygote or embryo is then implanted in another woman's womb. In no way can that 'carrying' woman be said to have 'conceived'. Scripture doesn't say that that happened: Isaiah 7:14 says "a virgin shall conceive", not "an embryo shall be miraculously conceived elsewhere and subsequently implanted into a virgin's womb".

Please rely on what Scripture actually says rather than adding to it to suit your theological agenda, people.

Good word, Matt.

 

[cowboymatt]

Good post,

Thanks!

I do appreciate what the no-egg proponents are doing -- they are trying to defend the sinlessness of Jesus.

However, I contend that since Scripture is not entirely clear on how we are infected with sin, then we should take great care on building on this doctrine.

The Bible is clear that everyone sins, don't misunderstand me. The problem though is associating sex with original sin, which the Bible is not clear about (and if my poor early morning memory serves me well, this idea was first popularized by Augustine, not Paul, the Evangelists, or any other writer of the Bible!).

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Thanks!

I do appreciate what the no-egg proponents are doing -- they are trying to defend the sinlessness of Jesus.

I understand--I used to be a "no-egg proponent" for the same reason.

However, I contend that since Scripture is not entirely clear on how we are infected with sin, then we should take great care on building on this doctrine.

Quite true.

The Bible is clear that everyone sins, don't misunderstand me. The problem though is associating sex with original sin, which the Bible is not clear about (and if my poor early morning memory serves me well, this idea was first popularized by Augustine, not Paul, the Evangelists, or any other writer of the Bible!).

I believe you are correct regarding Augustine. In fact the Eastern Church has a somewhat different take on 'ancestral sin' and it's effects on humanity. (And, if I'm not mistaken, the classic Weslyan-Arminian position seems to have some more in common with the Eastern view than the strictly Augustinian view)

 

[Eliyahu]

Strange to notice Nobody among the posters who claim the Ovum of Mary became Flesh explains how the Word became Flesh?

They intentionaly avoid Word became Flesh ( John 1:14) while they claim that we should stick to the Bible.

How Word became flesh if Flesh ( Ovum) became Flesh ?

I already explained more than 20 times about the Seed of Woman and that Zera ( Seed) usually meant the Offspring, Descendant, Child

So, the translation of The Seed of Woman is the Offspring of the Woman.

The child from the Surrogate Mother is no less than the Offspring of her.

If the child from the Surrogate Mother is not her Offspring, then what is he? Is he a her lover? or Is he a pet?

Isaiah 7:14 doesn't tell how the virgin became Harah, but the word Harah means that she became to have a child. It is very simple, and nothing more than that! It doesn't say her Zera became a Flesh at all!

The more detailed statement comes from John 1:14 Word became Flesh.

 

[Eliyahu]

God appeared in flesh to Abraham.

Genesis 18

1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. 6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. 8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

Jesus Christ is the same God who appeared to Abraham as there is ONLY ONE GOD. He appeared in flesh and ate the food, ate the Butter and Bread, and veal, washed His feet. The only thing He didn't do at that time was that He didn't come out of a woman.
The same God could appear in the form of the tiniest body too.
The Word of God appeared in flesh in the womb of Mary.

Will this be impossible?

Word became Flesh ! ( John 1:14)

Jesus saw His Body and said:

Heb 10:5
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The Same God wore the body prepared by Holy Spirit. Soma cannot mean any sperm or egg, but the body means the complete flesh.

 

[annsni]

You mean until someone discovered the truth that Mary's egg was not used. I notice you have yet to see it.

So it's a new revelation? That's interesting - and just what cults say about their beliefs.

God could have created the body for Jesus any way He chose. He COULD have done it by creating a brand new body and placing it in Mary - I'm not denying that He COULD. But in the Old Testament, we see the prophecies regarding the coming Messiah and how He would be born. Could He have been born in Egypt? Sure, but we know through prophecy that He would not because God said He'd be born in Bethlehem. We see in prophecy that the Messiah would be of the seed of David, a son of Abraham, and from Eve's seed (a sign that a man would not be involved). The angel told Mary that that which is conceived in her would be from the Holy Spirit - not that which is placed in her. Words are very clear here that she will conceive and not just carry. We know that God will glorify our own physical bodies someday and that He did the same to Jesus' body at the resurrection - making that which is corruptable into the incorruptable. In the same way, He made Mary's egg to be special - to be used in the flesh of the Son of God. There is no issue with the idea of the Word becoming flesh because as Mary grew, that egg was there but was NOT the Son of God. That egg was there from the time she was in HER mother's womb along with the other hundreds of thousands of eggs that God created as He created her. But that egg was never the Word until the Holy Spirit came and overshadowed her - and prepared that egg to become the Word made flesh.

As I showed, this has been the traditional teaching from the beginning of time - since the beginning of the prophecies of the coming Messiah. It is a new belief that Jesus was not born of Mary's flesh, and it is not supported at all by Scripture.

Galatians 1:8 says "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

 

[Matt Black]

How could you explain the Word became Flesh?

Easy. Nothing is impossible for God

 

[Eliyahu]

One of the ignorance by the people about God is that there are some things that the Almighty God cannot do, the Omnipotent God cannot do.

Many people think that their god can do everything if he wants to.

Such god is like Midas.

They do not know God is restricted by His own attributes.

1) God cannot bring the sinners into the Heaven

2) God cannot forgive the sins without punishing them

3) God cannot force and torture the sinners to believe in Jesus Christ because it contradicts His Holy nature and Loving-Kindness

4) God cannot forgive the sinners unless they are punished. Instead God provided the Redemption by Himself available for all.

5) God cannot force the people to go to the Heaven if they reject and refuse the acceptance of the Redemption by Jesus Christ.

6) God cannot use the Angel to redeem the sins of the human beings. Only the human being, the sinless human being can redeem the sins of the human beings. This is why God Himself came to the world in human form.

7) God cannot forgive the Satan as he is determined to rebel against Him.

8) God cannot forgive the sinners who chose not to believe in Jesus who is the redemption for their sins, who refuse to accept Jesus as their Savior.

9) God cannot convert the sinners to become righteous unless they repent and believe in Jesus the Redeemer.


Can God perfect Ovums of women and Sperms of Men so that their embryos can be sinless? Can the Almighty God not do such thing?

Why didn't He use such Hi-Technology from the beginning of the world?

NO WAY, NO WAY, That is why Jesus prayed the sweating prayer, blood-like-sweating prayer at Gethshemane with absolute Obedience to the Father, and confirmed that There is NO WAY other than His own death at the Cross. He didn't commit suicide there !

Jesus died at the Cross because there is Nther way for the Salvation of the Adam's race, other than His own shedding the Blood and Death.

 

[Eliyahu]

Easy. Nothing is impossible for God

Read the above post.

 

[annsni]

A cell is sinful? Where does it say that in Scripture?

 

[Matt Black]

Yes. And? You talk of ova needing to be 'perfected'; I'm not at all sure that ova are in need of perfection, in fact I don't find it anywhere in Scripture or Tradition

 

[Eliyahu]

In the previous thread I mentioned these points but nobody answered:

Biological Motherhood:

1) It is an Adultery if the egg of Mary was fertilized with Holy Spirit.

2) It is the violation of God's own Law that the Seed sowing should not be done by mixing or mingling the seeds between 2 different types of seeds.

3) It doesn’t explain how 2 persons could exist inside one person Jesus, One person who saw Abraham and wrestled with Jacob and the new person created by Holy Spirit and the egg of Mary.

4) It doesn't explain how the sinful nature of Mary could be purified or avoided.

5) Genesis 6 tells us that sons of God married the daughters of men and they were punished. The theory of Biological Motherhood sounds like this story.

Genesis 6
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.



Such theory of Biological Motherhood could be tolerated during the Dark Ages and used for Exalting Mary as goddess or Mother of God.

 

[Palatka51]

However, I contend that since Scripture is not entirely clear on how we are infected with sin, then we should take great care on building on this doctrine.

The Bible is clear that everyone sins, don't misunderstand me. The problem though is associating sex with original sin, which the Bible is not clear about (and if my poor early morning memory serves me well, this idea was first popularized by Augustine, not Paul, the Evangelists, or any other writer of the Bible!).

It is true that Augustine equated sex with original sin and that's a wrong interpretation of Romans 5:12. However Paul did clearly state that Adam was the progenitor of man's sin.

Romans 5:12-14
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Shouldn't the above verses clear that up a bit?

 

[Eliyahu]

So far, NObody among the Biological MOtherhood believers has explained how the Word became Flesh! ( John 1:14)

Word became Flesh ! cannot be compatible with Flesh( Ovum) became Flesh !

Word became Flesh cannot be compatible with Biological Motherhood.

Could the Messiah be a Deaf or Dumb or Blind or Leukemia patient or Down Syndrome patient? nor to be longsuffering nor to be slow to anger with the full loving kindness? or a psychosis patient with depression?

Christ should have been spotless and blemish ( 1 Peter 1:19).

1 Peter 1:19
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot

This means the physical and mental perfection. Have there ever been such person since the Fall of Adam?.


In that case, there should have been a special process of perfecting the Ovum of Mary.

Can the Ovum with only 23 chromosomes become a human being, without another 23 chromosomes of the sperm?

 

[annsni]

I explained in post #128.

 

[Eliyahu]

Strange theory:

But that egg was never the Word until the Holy Spirit came and overshadowed her - and prepared that egg to become the Word made flesh.

Clarify please. Otherwise, Egg became the Word? A new theory!

It sounds like Babylonian Myth which tells the goddess Ishtar( Easter) bore an egg at the river Euphrates, and the God came out of it

 

[annsni]

Can you show me where God has ever created flesh out of nothing?

Just as an egg is not a baby until it is fertilized, so the egg was not the Word until the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and made it so.

No - it's not a new theory. Your theory is the one that's new. I've shown that already.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

It is true that Augustine equated sex with original sin and that's a wrong interpretation of Romans 5:12. However Paul did clearly state that Adam was the progenitor of man's sin.

Romans 5:12-14
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Shouldn't the above verses clear that up a bit?

Genesis 5:2 declares the Woman also had the name Adam.

And did she not disobey the command not to eat of the tree first?

Do you think God was blinded to that? That God did not think her disobedience was sin?