Was There Alcohol in the Wine...

[TC]

I believe the wine in the Bible was alcoholic.
Romans 14 (NKJV)
21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

I have never heard of anyone past or present that stumbled over or was offended or made weak by plain ol' grape juice. However, if the wine was alcoholic (one could get drunk off of it), then it could be a problem.

The drink offering usually accompanied the burnt offerings, so I believe that they represent the blood of Jesus shed at the cross.

 

[npetreley]

If the thread does end up being closed I would still like it if someone would PM me with the references to Aristotle's and Pliny's works regarding the preservation of unfermented grape juice. :thumbs:

Here's the complete works of Aristotle and Pliny on the preservation of unfermented grape juice:

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Cool, huh?

The problem with that description is that it assumes they preserved grape juice, and that's not what Pliny writes about. Pliny wrote about mixing a boiled-down grape sludge with water (actually the sludge was closer to being a candy, since I think it was Pliny who reported that it was so thick you had to scrape it out of the skins).

That's not the same thing as preserving grape juice. Once you use the goop to make grape juice by mixing it with water, you have to drink it. If you let it sit, it will ferment.

 

[GLipscomb48]

In his dissertation 'Aristotle's Teleology and Modern Mechanics,' Christopher V. Mirus, B.A., M.A. states:

This initial conclusion is strongly supported by another passage from Meteorology
IV, this time in chapter nine. Here, moreover, we find not only support
for a general thesis about the term ἔργον, but a clear use of that term in the sense
required to support a non-biological interpretation of IV.12. In concluding his
discussion of bodies that give off fumes, Aristotle writes: “Sweet wine gives off
45 Cf. IV.3, 381a30, where roasting and boiling are referred to as ἔργα.
74
fumes, for it is fat, and does (ποιεῖ) the same things as oil, for it is not solidified
by cold, and will burn. It is wine in name, but not in effect (ἔστιν δὲ ὀνόµατι οἶ-
νος, ἔργῳ δ’ οὐκ ἔστιν), for the taste is not winelike, and so it does not intoxicate”
(387b9–13). Although the point is typically missed by translators,46 these
lines contain a clear application of the homonymy principle. Aristotle states that
what is called “sweet wine,” because it does not have the ἔργον (or ἔργα) typical
of wine, is wine in name only. The ἔργα to which he refers, however, are nothing
other than differentiae of the sort that he has already said characterize homogeneous
bodies.47 As it turns out, then, IV.12 does not include the only statements
in Meteorology, nor those that are clearest of interpretation, to the effect that the
homogeneous bodies are defined in terms of their ἔργα.

 

[Bible-boy]

In his dissertation 'Aristotle's Teleology and Modern Mechanics,' Christopher V. Mirus, B.A., M.A. states:

This initial conclusion is strongly supported by another passage from Meteorology IV, this time in chapter nine. Here, moreover, we find not only support for a general thesis about the term ἔργον, but a clear use of that term in the sense required to support a non-biological interpretation of IV.12. In concluding his discussion of bodies that give off fumes, Aristotle writes: “Sweet wine gives off 45 Cf. IV.3, 381a30, where roasting and boiling are referred to as ἔργα. 74 fumes, for it is fat, and does (ποιεῖ) the same things as oil, for it is not solidified by cold, and will burn. It is wine in name, but not in effect (ἔστιν δὲ ὀνόµατι οἶ-
νος, ἔργῳ δ’ οὐκ ἔστιν), for the taste is not winelike, and so it does not intoxicate” (387b9–13). Although the point is typically missed by translators,46 these lines contain a clear application of the homonymy principle. Aristotle states that what is called “sweet wine,” because it does not have the ἔργον (or ἔργα) typical of wine, is wine in name only. The ἔργα to which he refers, however, are nothing other than differentiae of the sort that he has already said characterize homogeneous bodies. 47 As it turns out, then, IV.12 does not include the only statements in Meteorology, nor those that are clearest of interpretation, to the effect that the homogeneous bodies are defined in terms of their ἔργα.

Thanks,

That is a reference to a secondary source (someone writing about the primary source). However, it does reference the part of the primary source that it is talking about so I can look it up for myself. The point that the quoted material makes is that Aristotle was aware that both grape juice and wine exist. However, it makes no mention of preservation of the grape juice as you were espousing in an earlier post. Remember you said:

...As far as no historical evidence, his writings, Columella's, Pliny's, Aristotle's, and others have recorded the ability to preserve fresh grape juice.

So it is not urban legend as you suppose.

 

[GLipscomb48]

In 'The Temperance Bible Library,' by Frederic Richard Lees, Dawson Burns - 1868 Aristotle is said to have stated that the 'wines of Arcadia were so thick that they dried up' and had to be scraped and disolved in water.

'Communion Wine and Bible Temperance' [SIZE=-1]by William Makepeace Thayer - 1869 has a good account of unfermented wines.
[/SIZE]

 

[npetreley]

In 'The Temperance Bible Library,' by Frederic Richard Lees, Dawson Burns - 1868 Aristotle is said to have stated that the 'wines of Arcadia were so thick that they dried up' and had to be scraped and disolved in water.

'Communion Wine and Bible Temperance' [SIZE=-1]by William Makepeace Thayer - 1869 has a good account of unfermented wines.
[/SIZE]

Quoting a temperance movement author from the latter 1800s about wine is like quoting a Jehovah's Witness about the deity of Christ.

 

[James_Newman]

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

They will never recant because they say the old wine is better. Needless to say, new wine is not slightly less old wine.

Proverbs 3:10
10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

New wine comes out of a press. What comes out of a press? New wine. Say it with me. New wine comes out of a press. Very good. Why does new wine come out of a press?

Isaiah 65:8
8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

Because new wine is found in the cluster. What is found in the cluster? New wine. Say it with me. New wine is found in the cluster. Put the cluster in the press, and new wine comes out of the press.

 

[npetreley]

Why do you put new wine in new wineskins?

Say it with me - When it ferments, it gives off CO2 gas as a by-product, which expands the skins. Old wineskins would burst during the fermentation process. New wineskins will stretch during the fermentation process.

Why is old wine better than new wine?

Say it with me - Mature fermented wine tastes better than new wine which has only fermented for a short while. That's where the expression comes from, "like wine, it improves with age". Vintage wine tastes better because it has had time to age. The "cheap stuff" is the new wine, which is alcoholic, but doesn't taste nearly as good as mature wine.

In addition, people historically in NT times drank new wine full strength, which is why the mockers accused the apostles of being drunk on "new wine". Mature wine was diluted with water, so it was difficult to get drunk on mature wine.

 

[James_Newman]

We can't discuss wineskins untill we can agree what the bible says new wine is. And the Bible doesn't say old wine is better than new wine. It says people who drink old wine say it is better than new wine.

 

[webdog]

Needless to say, new wine is not slightly less old wine.

...but old wine is old new wine.

New wine comes out of a press. What comes out of a press? New wine. Say it with me. New wine comes out of a press. Very good. Why does new wine come out of a press?

You're taking poetic language as literal. At any rate, it has been proven that grapes ferment ON the vine...so any grape that is starting to ferment on the vine would naturally continue once it is plucked and put into the press.

 

[donnA]

Noah drank wine and become drunk. I think there was alcohol in it :BangHead:

 

[James_Newman]

...but old wine is old new wine.

You're taking poetic language as literal. At any rate, it has been proven that grapes ferment ON the vine...so any grape that is starting to ferment on the vine would naturally continue once it is plucked and put into the press.

So because it is 'poetic', it isn't true?

 

[James_Newman]

Noah drank wine and become drunk. I think there was alcohol in it :BangHead:

Was that new wine fresh from the press?

 

[James_Newman]

Nehemiah 10:39
39 For the children of Israel and the children of Levi shall bring the offering of the corn, of the new wine, and the oil, unto the chambers, where are the vessels of the sanctuary, and the priests that minister, and the porters, and the singers: and we will not forsake the house of our God.

If old wine is better, why doesn't God want the good stuff?

 

[webdog]

So because it is 'poetic', it isn't true?

No, but because it's poetic...your literal translation isn't necessarily true. Let Scripture interpret Scripture. People got drunk off of new wine in the Bible. Either it was very alcoholic right out of the wine press...or the language is poetic. I don't know how it would be possible to get drunk off a freshly squeezed grape.

 

[James_Newman]

Where did people get drunk off of new wine in the bible?

 

[GLipscomb48]

Where did people get drunk off of new wine in the bible?

They never got drunk off of the new wine. Acts 2:13 tells us that the disciples were falsely accused of getting drunk off of new wine.

 

[webdog]

I don't have my notes with me...maybe someone else can chime in.

 

[webdog]

They never got drunk off of the new wine. Acts 2:13 tells us that the disciples were falsely accused of getting drunk off of new wine.

Would someone get falsely accused of getting drunk off of Pepsi? Thanks for the verse, btw.

 

[GLipscomb48]

People got drunk off of new wine in the Bible.

And you know this because?