TheOliveBranch
New Member
I found this site very interesting. It is the Jewish view of wine in the Bible:
Wine/Grape Juice in Biblical times
Wine/Grape Juice in Biblical times
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Please reread my last post. Already addressed, and you did not respond to my comments. If he did not drink "wine", his point falls apart. Also if he did not drink "wine", did he also not eat "bread"?Originally posted by latterrain77:
Regarding John The Baptist, the LORD specifically said “drinking WINE” (verse 33, the emphasis is mine). Regarding HIMSELF, the LORD does NOT say WINE (v34) – but merely the word “drinking” (i.e. no word WINE).
Agreed and already addressed. Why would they accuse him of being a winebibber if he *didn't* drink wine, when they also accused him of being a glutton for eating bread? It just does not make sense, neither for the Pharisees to say, nor in Christ's response.
The Religious Rulers (NOT Jesus) accused the LORD of being a “winebibber.” That is why the LORD said “YE SAY” (as described in my previous post).
I disagree. I think your avoiding the plain sense of the passage.
At NO point in these verses does the LORD ever connect the word “wine” to himself.
Of course Jesus is and was a King. But the next verse gives the reason: "Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted." This is not possible with Christ, because he would not *abuse* wine and become drunk, forgetting the law or perverting his judgment. The passage is about abuse, and I've already repeated stated abuse of alcohol (or medication, or chocolate cake, or sex, etc) is wrong.
Was Jesus a KING? I think he was. If HE was a King, then what are you going to do with Proverbs 31: 4? You can’t have it both ways Brian.
If Jesus drank wine, why do you believe HE spit it out when it was given to him on the Cross? (Matt. 15: 23)
I have not implied that anyone opposed to wine is a Pharisee. I did say that some here are making the same mistake, equating drinking with being drunk. In turn, I hope you are not implying I am a Pharisee: I agree many Christians would like to indulge in bad habits, but this is not at all why I believe Christ and the apostles drank wine.
I know that many Christians would like to indulge in bad habits. But who is REALLY the Pharisee then BrianT?
How so???Originally posted by Justified:
To say that Jesus drank alcoholic wine, is to say that Jesus sinned!
Did he not turn water into wine for the guests of the wedding? How are you drawing your conclusions???
And what is even worse, is to say He served alcoholic wine, because it goes against His nature and it goes against His Word!
Oh dear, dear. Ain't them exclamation marks scary?Originally posted by Justified:
To say that Jesus drank alcoholic wine, is to say that Jesus sinned!
And what is even worse, is to say He served alcoholic wine, because it goes against His nature and it goes against His Word!
Yes, I see it the word "wine" is not in the second phrase, *just as "bread" is not*. But I still think your wrong, for the reasons of contrast to point out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, which I've mentioned several times and which you've avoided several times.Originally posted by latterrain77:
No, I’m not avoiding the text at all. The plain sense of the Luke 7: 33-34 passage is EXACTLY what the passage itself says - and is very plain to see. V33 uses the word “wine” in context with John. V34 says NOTHING about the word “wine” in context with the LORD. Surely you can see this when you read the text?
Yes it is. For only abuse results in the things listed in the next verse.
Proverbs 31: 4-5 is NOT talking about abuse or any of the other things you mentioned.
Matt 27:34 says he "tasted", and *then* would not drink. This implies it tasted bad, as it was mixed with gall. The parallel passage in John 19:29 says he "received" it, but we know from the other passages this was not a complete receiving, just an initial acceptance and then not finishing.
Nowhere in the Matt. 15: 23 verse does it say that Jesus rejected wine because it “tasted bad.” In fact the verse flatly says “HE RECEIVED IT NOT” (Matt. 15: 23). The LORD rejected that wine for the Biblical reasons that I have already cited. KINGS are not permitted to drink alcoholic beverages (Proverbs 31: 4).
...
The verse does not say he “tasted it.” It say’s “HE received it not” (see previous comment). The LORD would not partake of alcohol ...
Jesus was sinless. He was pure. He had to be, to be our Saviour.Originally posted by BrianT:
Originally posted by Justified:
To say that Jesus drank alcoholic wine, is to say that Jesus sinned!
How so???
Yes, I see you are right. I was very sloppy in handling this aspect of the conversation.Originally posted by latterrain77:
Your comment on Matt. 27: 34 and John 19: 29 is inaccurate. As you must know, the word in Matt. 27: 34 and John 19: 29 is VINEGAR – not wine!
Yes, I see that.
We just don’t agree on the v33/34 question.
I agree.Originally posted by Justified:
Jesus was sinless. He was pure. He had to be, to be our Saviour.
Close enough, I'll agree for the sake of argument.
Fermentation is the spoiling and rotting of a liquid or juice.
Wine is the fermentation or rotting of grape juice.
Now ya lost me. How did you make the jump: "drinking a fermented product" = "sin"?
Because Jesus was sinless and pure, He would not and could not consume a fermented product, and especially during the passover, because He was Jewish.![]()
Now ya lost me. How did you make the jump: "drinking a fermented product" = "sin"?[/QB][/QUOTE]Originally posted by BrianT:
Because Jesus was sinless and pure, He would not and could not consume a fermented product, and especially during the passover, because He was Jewish.![]()
I'm not big on following Jewish customs in general, so please provide scripture. Also please describe to me at what precise point grape juice becomes fermented.Originally posted by Justified:
The Jew's have a strict custom and law against the consuming of leaven and fermented products during passover, and the consuming of such things was strictly forbiden.
I'm not big on following Jewish customs in general, so please provide scripture. Also please describe to me at what precise point grape juice becomes fermented.Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Justified:
The Jew's have a strict custom and law against the consuming of leaven and fermented products during passover, and the consuming of such things was strictly forbiden.