Was wine in Jesus' day alcoholic?

[Ps104_33]

"Do not suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object which is abused. Man can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we then prohibit and abolish women?" – Martin Luther

NO just fermented and rotten women.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Justified:

The first one that comes to mind, is the passover in Egypt, right before the Exodus.

Um, what?

And can you describe at what point "grape juice" becomes "wine"?

And what of non-passover times?

And what of the last half of Romans 14?

 

[HankD]

Also please describe to me at what precise point grape juice becomes fermented.

When the first molecule of alcohol is produced.

HankD

 

[Ransom]

Ps104_33 said:

What do those who had an alcolhol addiction before coming to Christ do when the communion cup comes around?

I have no problem with the use of grape juice instead of wine. That is the practice at my church and most churches I have attended.

Nor would I have a problem with any alcoholic accepting the bread and passing over the wine, if necessary. If his heart is sincere and he has partaken as far as he believes he is able, that is enough for me. (I Am Not A Pastor.)

 

[RomOne16]

Originally posted by Ransom:
RomOne16 asked:

I have a question though. Do you have any information on how the whole "grape juice" theory got started, and how those who quote it as truth justify doing so?

Thomas Welch was a United Methodist who had some scruples about the use of wine in communion, which was the accepted practice of the whole Church at the time. He applied the principles of pasteurization to the juice of Concord grapes and came up with "Dr. Welch's Unfermented Wine" (which we now know as Welch's Grape Juice). He tried to persuade the powers-that-be at his church to adopt its use in communion, but it was seen as an unnecessary innovation.

Later, his son Charles began marketing it as authentic Biblical wine. It caught on, especially given the rise of the Temperance movement at the time.

My personal hypothesis is that Charles Welch's claim that unfermented grape juice was Biblical wine was a little bit of revisionist history that happened to catch on. Since the Temperance movement was on the rise, it was the sort of thing people wanted to hear. The above information came from Welch's corporate Web site and a few sites run by United Methodists, so it is at best second-hand. I lack the primary sources to confirm or falsify my hypothesis.

Thank you again for the information Ransom. I am going to do some more research on this and I'll try to post what I find, if anything.

 

[RomOne16]

Originally posted by Pete Richert:
I can't find that post. I hope that poster sees the conversation and speaks up.

That said, I'm not sure why we continue to hash out the booze threads. I think those who are confterable with drinking should drink in silence and not try to challenge us other brothers who hold convictions. Its like eating meat sacrificed to idols in Paul's day. If you can thank God for what He has provided, then do so with a clear conscience. Don't try to convince everyone else it is okay, that's not needed. It is one thing if you attend a chuch which frowns on this, you drink, and you have at it with your pastor. You should probably find a different chuch then. But here, its not like we are following each other into bars and causing fifteen year olds to stumble. First off, they should follow the LAW, which says NNE under 21 should drink. Every Christian youth should adhere to the governing authorities as commanded by Peter , Paul, and Jesus, for not to IS A SIN, whether alchohol is okay or not.

Thank you for looking for the post about the words used for 'wine' Pete. That was the kind of information I was looking for, and I'm sorry you didn't find it.

As for "hashing out the booze threads", I was a little perplexed by that statement because, as I stated in my original post for this thread, I am not trying to debate the right or wrong of the issue. I am only searching for information on how, through time, some have come to the conclusion that wine (or at least some wine) in Jesus' day did not contain alcohol.

Still searching.....

 

[RomOne16]

Originally posted by TheOliveBranch:
I found this site very interesting. It is the Jewish view of wine in the Bible:

Wine/Grape Juice in Biblical times

Thank you OliveBranch! That was just the sort of information I was looking for. It was very interesting and informative.

 

[Johnv]

To say that Jesus drank alcoholic wine, is to say that Jesus sinned!

Uhhh, when last I checked, consumption of alcohon was not a sin, only drunkenness was a sin.

Otherwise, we might as well ban the Christian use of Nyquil.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
"Alcohol is nowhere to be found in any product of nature; was never created by God; but is essentially an artificial thing prepared by man through the destructive process of fermintation" Dr. Henry Monroe; Lecture on Alcohol

Then marijuana and opium must be acceptable to consume because they are natural.

Hasn't it occurred that shabat wine has been used by the Jews since the time of Moses? Jesus would have consumed wine at every sabbath meal and every passover meal. In fact, did he not share the passover wine with his desciples at the last supper? It certainly wasn't grape juice, because that wasn't the custom. And don't tell me he didn't consume wine with his friends at the last summer. If that were so, I think the gospel writers would have made it a piont to record that fact in their writings, because it would have been a significant break from tradition.

 

[Ransom]

Originally posted by RomOne16:

That was just the sort of information I was looking for. It was very interesting and informative.

I was prompted to do a little further research on this subject after reading that article. It mentions, for example, that "new wine" (Heb. tirosh is also intoxicating: "Harlotry, wine [yayin] and new wine [tirosh] take away the understanding" (Hos. 4:11)

Even more interesting is the judgment pronounced on Israel by God in Micah 6:

You will sow but you will not reap.
You will tread the olive but will not anoint yourself with oil;
And the grapes [tirosh], but you will not drink wine [yayin]. (Mic. 6:15)

It seems that Biblically speaking, the abundance of "new wine" but the lack of wine is a curse, not a blessing.

FWIW, Hos. 4:11 and Mic. 6:15 are the only two verses in the Bible where the two words tirosh and yayin appear together, but it is also possible that they occur together and are contrasted elsewhere, only less close.

[ September 09, 2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

[HankD]

"Alcohol is nowhere to be found in any product of nature; was never created by God; but is essentially an artificial thing prepared by man through the destructive process of fermintation" Dr. Henry Monroe; Lecture on Alcohol

This is really bad logic because in addition to the natural substances already mentioned, the seeds of certain flower plants contain lysergic acid amide (LSA) which is the natural form of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD).
Certain kinds of mushrooms contain psylocin (another halucinogen).
Certain kinds of cactus plants contain mescaline (yet another psychotropic substance) in the pears and juice.
Certain grains contain a substance called ergot also related to LSD.
These and other toxic plants which occur in nature grow right in your back yard and have been used for millenia by shamans to "get high" and connect with the gods.

According to Dr Monroe's logic, these substances would be OK to use since God made them just the way they are.

HankD

[ September 09, 2002, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[latterrain77]

Hi Brian. Thank you for your courteous reply. I’m glad that we have found agreement on at least some of this issue. It is a big topic and I’m thankful that the Bible provides the real answers for all of us.

That is why I thank GOD for the opportunity to continually turn to the Bible to try and find the answers (just like the Bereran’s of Acts 17 did) to ALL of life’s questions. That is precisely why GOD gave us the inerrant Bible – so that we can search for truth.

Thank you again for your terrific thoughts BrianT. It is very much appreciated.

latterrain77

 

[latterrain77]

Hi ChristianCynic. Thank you for your comments. No, I’m not saying that modern medicines trump the Bible. Actually, modern medicines are a product of the growing knowledge that the Bible proclaimed mankind could expect (Daniel 12: 14). Jesus approved of this method too (Matt. 9: 12).

I don’t understand your second question/point. However, I’m confident that the verse does not promote the idea that “alcoholic drinking” is related to pastoral hospitality of visitors and guests. Besides, pastoral hospitality also includes tending to the sick. While a little wine would be acceptable in this circumstance, it is no longer necessary due to modern medicines.

Thank you again CC. I appreciate your comments.

latterrain77

[ September 10, 2002, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

[Rev. G]

Yes, the wine in the NT is "real" wine. Yes, Jesus drank wine. In fact, His first miracle was turning water into wine at a wedding in Cana.

Wine was used in communion services until Americans began thinking that alcohol is evil. Mr. Welch was a Methodist and established "Welch's Grape Juice" so that people would stop using wine in communion and use grape juice instead. For all of you Southern Baptists - the 1925 Baptist Faith & Message states that the elements of the Lord's Supper are bread and WINE.

When Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper He was celebrating Passover with His disciples - and they were drinking wine. So, the Lord's Supper was instituted with WINE, not grape juice.

Rev. G

 

[Helen]

A couple of points:

1. Alcohol is certainly found in nature! Some berries and fruits will ferment naturally on the tree/bush/vine. Pyracantha berries come to mind immediately, as the birds get drunk on them every autumn! We used to have to pull dead birds out of the horse trough because the would try to take a drink, lose their balance, fall over, and drown! These drunk birds also get hit by cars around here at that time of year -- they lose their sense of distance or something. Some of it is really funny. Some is really sad.

2. When alcohol can be used in place of a "modern medicine" it is generally much safer. The medications we have today have so many side effects that it is the considered advice of many health professionals to take as little as possible as rarely as possible.

3. And yes, wine in Jesus' day had to be alcoholic -- or Jesus would not have used that picture in terms of new wine bursting old wineskins. The reason they would burst is that they could no longer expand during the fermentation process!

[ September 23, 2002, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

[latterrain77]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
Yes, the wine in the NT is "real" wine. Yes, Jesus drank wine. In fact, His first miracle was turning water into wine at a wedding in Cana.

When Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper He was celebrating Passover with His disciples - and they were drinking wine. So, the Lord's Supper was instituted with WINE, not grape juice.

Rev. G

Hi G. Thank you for your comments about “wine.” The examples you provided do not say that the LORD drank wine. In John 2, it says Jesus turned water into wine but it does not say anywhere that he drank that wine. If you think I'm wrong, please tell me where it says in John 2 that the LORD drank wine.

In addition, the “Last Supper” example you provided does not say that the LORD drank wine either. The phrase used is “fruit of the vine” (Matt. 26: 29 and Mark 14: 25) NOT wine. The Greek word used here (gennema) "fruit" is entirely different than the word (oinos) "wine." The LORD did NOT drink wine. Thank you G. I appreciate your thoughts.

latterrain77

 

[HankD]

Actually the complete phrase is "gennamatos tas ampelou".

I believe the forest can't be seen because the trees are getting in the way.

Gennama: Friberg 01132 gennama( atos) (to), what is produced or born; of man offspring, child.
Any product or work.

Ampelos: Grapevine.

It was the "product of the grapevine" and he drank it (whatever it was).

HankD

 

[latterrain77]

Hi HankD. Thank you for your comments. Whether it’s the singular word fruit (“gennema”) or the entire phrase that you suggested - they both illustrate the same thing – that the LORD did NOT drink wine at the Last Supper.

The word used in the “Last Supper” text is NOT “oinos” (wine). If the LORD wanted to teach us that he drank “wine” at the Last Supper, then the word used would have been wine (“oinos”) as that word is used repeatedly throughout the New Testament as meaning just that - wine. But the word used in the "Last Supper" text is NOT wine ("oinos"). It is "gennema" which means FRUIT. Jesus did NOT drink wine at the “Last Supper” (or at any other time either). Thanks HankD.

latterrain77

[ September 25, 2002, 05:47 AM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

[HankD]

Jesus did NOT drink wine at the “Last Supper” (or at any other time either).

Hi Laterrain,

I will repeat what I posted…

"It was the "product of the grapevine" and he drank it (whatever it was)."

Please note that the word "wine" does not appear in this statement

In fact it doesn't appear anywhere in my post. I purposely left it that way to let the reader decide what it is that Jesus drank with the apostles at the Passover dinner (Seder).

An anonymous rabbi once said "He who searches for the gnat will surely find it".

By the way the Scripture doesn't anywhere say that Jesus drank water either.

HankD

[ September 25, 2002, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[Yelsew]

I know I'm late getting in on this conversation, but I just received my login privilege.

Hi Hank D. Thank you for your thoughts about “wine” at the Last Supper. I can't find anything in the Bible that says Jesus drank wine at the Last Supper or at any other time either. My prior post covers much of my study on the topic. If you think the Bible says Jesus did drink wine please let me know where. I've never been able to find it. Thanks Hank D.

latterrain77

Have you considered that there is no specific mention of any other thing commonly used or done by the people of Jesus' time? That is, there is no mention of common clothing, no mention of common foods, no mention of common beverages, no mention of waste disposal, and little or no mention of common transportation or entertainment except where it is integral with the setting of the story.

To conclude that Jesus did not drink wine because it is not specifically stated he did so, is pure speculation, because wine was then, as it is now, a common beverage throughout most of the world including Israel. Having spent some time in the Mediterranean region I can tell you that wine is consumed as commonly as water. It's not a big deal for the whole family to gather around the supper table, kids and adults alike, enjoying fermented wine with their meal.