-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
We Do Not Limit Atonement!
- Thread starter tyndale1946
- Start date
Ken,
One of my best friends in the world is a "Calvinistic" Universalist (if that is possible) and we have gone around and around about this, so I'm fairly familiar with your views.
Out of curiosity how do you deal with the passages which obviously speak of "eternal punishment" as contrasted with "eternal life?" (I want to see if you both handle these passages in the same way.)
Thanks and God Bless,
Bro. Bill
One of my best friends in the world is a "Calvinistic" Universalist (if that is possible) and we have gone around and around about this, so I'm fairly familiar with your views.
Out of curiosity how do you deal with the passages which obviously speak of "eternal punishment" as contrasted with "eternal life?" (I want to see if you both handle these passages in the same way.)
Thanks and God Bless,
Bro. Bill
KenH
Well-Known Member
1)Quite possible. I am now one.
2)The issue is the translation of the Greek word, "aion". Aion is not a synonym for eternal. It is not even translated consistently in our English translations. A good article is at hellbusters.8m.com/eby/aionage.htm.
As for eternal life, once death is destroyed after all have come to believe in Jesus as their Savior, there will be no more death. Only life will remain.
Maybe not, but if I thought this belief had any merit, I would see no reason to preach a Gospel of Salvation to men, provided that all were going to receive the same after a period of 'refinement.' Why not just leave everyone alone and let them enjoy their sinful lusts, seek after their pleasure, or whatever and just chalk it up to the consummation of all things? I don't think the belief of this can be in line with scripture.
Why would God say be ye holy because I am holy, when in the end all are going to be made holy in the purifying flames of the lake of fire.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
KenH
Well-Known Member
Because I would still do not want anyone to undergo the correction of hell. It will not be a walk in the park. It will consist of sterner measures than we deal with in this age as it is likened to a lake of fire. The hope of universal reconciliation by no means lets anyone off of the hook for living in rebellion to God in this age.
Hey, I'm not saying I agree with the view, but I certainly see a reason why one would want to help others avoid that kind of "refinement". I can hardly bear up the refinement I get in this life, and I've got it relatively easy compared to many. So I can't imagine what it would be like to be refined in the lake of fire! No thankee! Gimme my tests and trials here over the prospect of that, anytime.
Brother,
To many, the belief of this kind of thing would be false hope, a false comfort. It is granting license for pleasing the flesh. It is as false as saying So what? I'm going to Hell, I'll just burn up and then it will be over.
The Lake of Fire will be eternal.
My point is that if I believed something such as that, I wouldn't bother preaching because sin is only relevant to the situation and not any eternal Law of God.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
To many, the belief of this kind of thing would be false hope, a false comfort. It is granting license for pleasing the flesh. It is as false as saying So what? I'm going to Hell, I'll just burn up and then it will be over.
The Lake of Fire will be eternal.
My point is that if I believed something such as that, I wouldn't bother preaching because sin is only relevant to the situation and not any eternal Law of God.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
Ken,
Yep, yall argue those verses the same way.
I can't understand how or why God would use the same word for "eternal punishment" as he would for "eternal life" if indeed there is a completion to the word aionion.
He seems to want to reveal a punishment that will last as long as eternal life lasts.
Another question for you. You say that you would want people to avoid the correction of Hell, but as a Calvinist the motive for evangelism is not a hope to make more people avoid hell, afterall their is no avoiding it in the Calvinistic system. The motive for Calvinist in Evangelism has always been, "because God says so." "He has chose us to be the means to carry the message to God's elect throughout the world." At least that's what I always remember being my response when I was a Calvinist.
The motive for Calvinistic evangelism could never be a desire for more people to avoid hell. That would be illogical in that system, which is another good reason to doubt Calvinism. Hell and the fear of God are both motivator of man's will in the Arminian system, but in the Calvinistic system Hell only serves as a place for God to "show his power" and "make his glory known."
That makes God seem like some diabolical dictator, in my opinion. Think about it. Why does he create objects of wrath in the Calvinistic view? To show his power and make his glory known.
Come on. Like the idea of knowing God sends people, some of them we know and love, who have absolutely no control over their plight, to a eternal place of torture and pain for all of eternity makes believers think, Oh what a loving and great God we have! Get real.
Bill
Yep, yall argue those verses the same way.
I can't understand how or why God would use the same word for "eternal punishment" as he would for "eternal life" if indeed there is a completion to the word aionion.
He seems to want to reveal a punishment that will last as long as eternal life lasts.
Another question for you. You say that you would want people to avoid the correction of Hell, but as a Calvinist the motive for evangelism is not a hope to make more people avoid hell, afterall their is no avoiding it in the Calvinistic system. The motive for Calvinist in Evangelism has always been, "because God says so." "He has chose us to be the means to carry the message to God's elect throughout the world." At least that's what I always remember being my response when I was a Calvinist.
The motive for Calvinistic evangelism could never be a desire for more people to avoid hell. That would be illogical in that system, which is another good reason to doubt Calvinism. Hell and the fear of God are both motivator of man's will in the Arminian system, but in the Calvinistic system Hell only serves as a place for God to "show his power" and "make his glory known."
That makes God seem like some diabolical dictator, in my opinion. Think about it. Why does he create objects of wrath in the Calvinistic view? To show his power and make his glory known.
Come on. Like the idea of knowing God sends people, some of them we know and love, who have absolutely no control over their plight, to a eternal place of torture and pain for all of eternity makes believers think, Oh what a loving and great God we have! Get real.
Bill
What is eternity in Heaven going to be?
Looking over into the abyss and witnessing the torture of the lost?
Looking endlessly day and night for loved ones?
Where is the 'no more tears' in these views?
Either God cannot deliver his promise to wipe away our tears and end our sorrow, or my wife will not be searching for me.
Which do you want to claim? It matters not to me what you claim, we have proved but one thing here and that is that if the apostles had been blessed with the internet, there would not have been any preaching among the lost. That is all we have proved.
You believe what you want to and I still believe what I want to, we each find proof in Scripture, but not one of us can take Scripture alone and teach/provide proof for our position, does this not declare to us the Holy Spirit must work, or it is a dead letter?
I do not apologize when I believe something is scriptural, but to sit incessantly within the confines of this forum and hear the same arguments over and over and over, with each side (myself included brethren), claiming victory with each post, makes me want to apologize to my family for neglecting private devotions with them.
Since our Lord founded the church during his earthly ministry believers have been persecuted for any reason whatsoever, (today in N. Korea brethren hold in their possession sometimes as little as 1 page of scripture and this page they memorize so they can pass it along to others in trade for a page they have not read) In Bhutan, elementary students are promised chocolate in exchange for information against their parents (unbeknownst to the children) whether or not they are FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST, when they answer their parents are (and sometimes they themselves), they are followed home and the family or families are beaten, burned out and driven out of the country.
THESE ARE THE ELECT Brethren.
Again in N. Korea, Vietnam and all over Asia, our brethren meet in meat coolers, late at night deep in the jungles, why do they, as Paul put themselves in such great physical danger while I sit here debating whether or not God is Sovereign? They KNOW HE IS SOVEREIGN. I make swelling speeches about freedom of religion, about taking my cross and following, but these brethren KNOW TRUE FREEDOM, THEY KNOW TRUE SERVICE,
When was the last time you or I were beaten because we were believers in Christ? Our parents disowned us? Our own family in the flesh threatened to kill us if they see us again? We had to sleep outside even in our own village where we grew up as a child, in a land where families are extended, but because of Christ, you have no family but CHRIST.
Brethren, WE, (MYSELF INCLUDED) have not yet suffered for Christ. I do hope we do not have to see this in our nation, but I believe we are marked for it.
Our greatest fear is that someone next to us will see how much we tithe, or they will tithe more than we.
Pray for me Brethren, Pray for my wife, and my three children, because I have been called to the Bhudist Kingdom of Bhutan, and pray for that nation. Pray for me that I will trust evermore that GOD IS SOVEREIGN because I could not go if I thought HE was not. To go myself would be nothing, but I have asked my wife to go and she is willing, I have asked my children to go and they are willing.
Pray for us that we remain so, that as the door would be open, I will take up my Cross and Follow HIM.
I would much rather stay here where the real comfort zone is, where I can preach among Brethren who may disagree with me, but are more cordial, but where MY LORD LEADS I MUST FOLLOW, is this not true?
Again, I ask your prayers for my strengthening in the Grace of God, for without this I will not go. I know, because I rebelled from HIS calling to preach for sixteen years; seeking first a secular education and a measure of stability and comfort, I nearly lost my family. Yes, God is Soveriegn, don't believe me, ask the sons of Jacob, brothers of Joseph, ask Moses, Saul, or David, any one of these will tell you gladly that God is Sovereign and He does what HE pleases among the host of men (misquote and paraphrased and probably cut all to shreds, but I believe you can find the word of God to say this at Daniel 4.35).
Again Brethren, Pray for me.
Forgive me for such a great length in my post.
May God Richly Bless each of you in your walk and service with HIM. Amen.
Bro. Dallas
Looking over into the abyss and witnessing the torture of the lost?
Looking endlessly day and night for loved ones?
Where is the 'no more tears' in these views?
Either God cannot deliver his promise to wipe away our tears and end our sorrow, or my wife will not be searching for me.
Which do you want to claim? It matters not to me what you claim, we have proved but one thing here and that is that if the apostles had been blessed with the internet, there would not have been any preaching among the lost. That is all we have proved.
You believe what you want to and I still believe what I want to, we each find proof in Scripture, but not one of us can take Scripture alone and teach/provide proof for our position, does this not declare to us the Holy Spirit must work, or it is a dead letter?
I do not apologize when I believe something is scriptural, but to sit incessantly within the confines of this forum and hear the same arguments over and over and over, with each side (myself included brethren), claiming victory with each post, makes me want to apologize to my family for neglecting private devotions with them.
Since our Lord founded the church during his earthly ministry believers have been persecuted for any reason whatsoever, (today in N. Korea brethren hold in their possession sometimes as little as 1 page of scripture and this page they memorize so they can pass it along to others in trade for a page they have not read) In Bhutan, elementary students are promised chocolate in exchange for information against their parents (unbeknownst to the children) whether or not they are FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST, when they answer their parents are (and sometimes they themselves), they are followed home and the family or families are beaten, burned out and driven out of the country.
THESE ARE THE ELECT Brethren.
Again in N. Korea, Vietnam and all over Asia, our brethren meet in meat coolers, late at night deep in the jungles, why do they, as Paul put themselves in such great physical danger while I sit here debating whether or not God is Sovereign? They KNOW HE IS SOVEREIGN. I make swelling speeches about freedom of religion, about taking my cross and following, but these brethren KNOW TRUE FREEDOM, THEY KNOW TRUE SERVICE,
When was the last time you or I were beaten because we were believers in Christ? Our parents disowned us? Our own family in the flesh threatened to kill us if they see us again? We had to sleep outside even in our own village where we grew up as a child, in a land where families are extended, but because of Christ, you have no family but CHRIST.
Brethren, WE, (MYSELF INCLUDED) have not yet suffered for Christ. I do hope we do not have to see this in our nation, but I believe we are marked for it.
Our greatest fear is that someone next to us will see how much we tithe, or they will tithe more than we.
Pray for me Brethren, Pray for my wife, and my three children, because I have been called to the Bhudist Kingdom of Bhutan, and pray for that nation. Pray for me that I will trust evermore that GOD IS SOVEREIGN because I could not go if I thought HE was not. To go myself would be nothing, but I have asked my wife to go and she is willing, I have asked my children to go and they are willing.
Pray for us that we remain so, that as the door would be open, I will take up my Cross and Follow HIM.
I would much rather stay here where the real comfort zone is, where I can preach among Brethren who may disagree with me, but are more cordial, but where MY LORD LEADS I MUST FOLLOW, is this not true?
Again, I ask your prayers for my strengthening in the Grace of God, for without this I will not go. I know, because I rebelled from HIS calling to preach for sixteen years; seeking first a secular education and a measure of stability and comfort, I nearly lost my family. Yes, God is Soveriegn, don't believe me, ask the sons of Jacob, brothers of Joseph, ask Moses, Saul, or David, any one of these will tell you gladly that God is Sovereign and He does what HE pleases among the host of men (misquote and paraphrased and probably cut all to shreds, but I believe you can find the word of God to say this at Daniel 4.35).
Again Brethren, Pray for me.
Forgive me for such a great length in my post.
May God Richly Bless each of you in your walk and service with HIM. Amen.
Bro. Dallas
Y
Yelsew
Guest
There is nothing more eternal than the second death.
The first death is of the flesh, and since the spirit is the life of the flesh, the spirit lives on after the flesh has died.
It is the spirit that faces the Judgement and if not found in the book of life, the spirit is cast in to the lake of fire which is the second death which is death of the spirit.
There is nothing more eternal than the second death.
[ February 20, 2003, 03:56 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
The first death is of the flesh, and since the spirit is the life of the flesh, the spirit lives on after the flesh has died.
It is the spirit that faces the Judgement and if not found in the book of life, the spirit is cast in to the lake of fire which is the second death which is death of the spirit.
There is nothing more eternal than the second death.
[ February 20, 2003, 03:56 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
I agree with that Yelsew, the body, I believe will be prepared for an eternity of the Lake of Fire and Death will be an ever present dread and fear and torment, but never ending, no completion, as the grave would be considered comfort to some in great pain, or to believers, etc. there will be no comfort once consigned to the Lake of Fire. (I beleive there will be a resurrection of the lost, in a resurrected body).
Bro. Dallas
Bro. Dallas
KenH
Well-Known Member
Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. On what I believe is my journey into learning truth, what you wrote above is what led me to not stop with traditional Calvinism but to press on and make what I believe are necessary modifications in my beliefs to more closely align them with the truth of God's Word.
Ken,
On the face of it, it sure looks to me like the Bible says hell is eternal. I have not come to any solid conclusions on the matter, because I just haven't looked deeply enough into it. And I haven't looked deeply enough into it because, to be honest, it doesn't matter much to me. Sorry if that statement draws the ire of some, but I'm just telling the truth. God does what He does for whatever reason He does it. I trust it's right whether or not it fits my view of what's good or bad.
What concerns me about your change of heart is not so much your conclusion but that I'm getting the impression you reached it via the emotion superhighway typical of Arminian reasoning.
But I don't really want to debate the issue. Just wanted to weigh in with a word of caution.
On the face of it, it sure looks to me like the Bible says hell is eternal. I have not come to any solid conclusions on the matter, because I just haven't looked deeply enough into it. And I haven't looked deeply enough into it because, to be honest, it doesn't matter much to me. Sorry if that statement draws the ire of some, but I'm just telling the truth. God does what He does for whatever reason He does it. I trust it's right whether or not it fits my view of what's good or bad.
What concerns me about your change of heart is not so much your conclusion but that I'm getting the impression you reached it via the emotion superhighway typical of Arminian reasoning.
But I don't really want to debate the issue. Just wanted to weigh in with a word of caution.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Based on my personality profile I took at a seminar a few weeks ago, I lean toward thinking, not emotion, but not excessively so.
The problem I ran into with traditional Calvinism is that it began to ring hollow from a Biblical standpoint to state that God, being sovereign in salvation, is going to torture without end people whose only fault is that they inherited a sin nature from Adam that can only be overcome by the intervening of the Holy Spirit in an act of power in regeneration.
Theoretically, we can say that God is glorified by torturing His creatures without end - but that is from the perspective of those of us who don't believe we are going to the subjects of said torture - we believe we are going to glorify God by being saved.
I simply no longer find Biblical warrant to state that God will not bring all of His creatures back into full fellowship with Him. I no longer find Biblical warrant to state that Satan is going to have his desire to win by having any of God's creatures being tortured by God forever.
I would simply urge you to look at the links I have provided. There are, of course, many more articles on the Internet and, yes, I have read the opposing side to my new view(of course, I used to be on the other side so I think I know the arguments anyway
).
May God bless you.
The problem I ran into with traditional Calvinism is that it began to ring hollow from a Biblical standpoint to state that God, being sovereign in salvation, is going to torture without end people whose only fault is that they inherited a sin nature from Adam that can only be overcome by the intervening of the Holy Spirit in an act of power in regeneration.
Theoretically, we can say that God is glorified by torturing His creatures without end - but that is from the perspective of those of us who don't believe we are going to the subjects of said torture - we believe we are going to glorify God by being saved.
I simply no longer find Biblical warrant to state that God will not bring all of His creatures back into full fellowship with Him. I no longer find Biblical warrant to state that Satan is going to have his desire to win by having any of God's creatures being tortured by God forever.
I would simply urge you to look at the links I have provided. There are, of course, many more articles on the Internet and, yes, I have read the opposing side to my new view(of course, I used to be on the other side so I think I know the arguments anyway
May God bless you.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Why should you be concerned? They were given the opportunity to be saved at some point during their physical existence here on earth, They made a choice either actively or passively. Those who failed to have faith in God the Creator are found unworthy by God to continue among the living. They were judged in the same manner that a production line inspector insures the quality of the product before the product is packaged for shipment. Those items that are flawed are culled out and destroyed thus insuring product quality. For humanity that cannot, due to a sin nature, be top quality, the mark of Quality the inspector looks for is the stamp of Jesus in our spirit. Those without that stamp are removed to the lake of fire. Those with the stamp are given over completely to Jesus for eternity. That is why it is absolutely, totally important that you, and all of us, tell others who have not heard, the Gospel about Jesus.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Strong's Number: 166 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
aijwvnioß from (165)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Aionios 1:208,31
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ahee-o'-nee-os Adjective
Definition
1.without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2.without beginning
3.without end, never to cease, everlasting
I don't know, Ken. This is the word translated "everlasting" in Matt 25:46 and I don't see anything limiting the definition of the Greek word to anything less than eternity. Unless someone can find another lexicon that suggests otherwise.
Original Word Word Origin
aijwvnioß from (165)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Aionios 1:208,31
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ahee-o'-nee-os Adjective
Definition
1.without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2.without beginning
3.without end, never to cease, everlasting
I don't know, Ken. This is the word translated "everlasting" in Matt 25:46 and I don't see anything limiting the definition of the Greek word to anything less than eternity. Unless someone can find another lexicon that suggests otherwise.
I no longer find Biblical warrant to state that Satan is going to have his desire to win by having any of God's creatures being tortured by God forever.
I find no scriptural warrant that satan is going to win either, but rather he also will be tormented for eternity. How can he be said to be a winner?
Bro. Dallas
I find no scriptural warrant that satan is going to win either, but rather he also will be tormented for eternity. How can he be said to be a winner?
Bro. Dallas
Ken, I read the articles on the internet that you posted. They are very interesting and similar to my friends views as well. It seems to me that a lot of your support is riding on historical data of how the theological concept of eternal hell was accepted and on the one word "aionion." It just doesn't seem to be a very strong case too me.
It seems one could make a stronger case for annilationism than you can for universalism, if you have a problem with the eternality of hell?
I think it is also interesting that Universalism is really growing in numbers right now. Stats show that large groups of people in evangelical circles are adopting Universalism and many of them are traditional Calvinistist like my friend and Ken here.
I wonder why that is?