Featured We don't WANT "Free-Will"

Oh I see.... We are now moving from predestination to bashing Election. Note that when ole St. Paul was up there on Mars Hill, that when he preached election they all cheered. Then when he started on Resurrection they called him a nut & took off.....LOL .... consistent human nature.

Guess everything is relative.... now its Election that people have problems with. Freakin funny!

So in your book Skan, the "True" Calvy is the Hyper Calvinist?!?

 

No, if I did it willfully and intentionally (on purpose), I did so regardless if my choice was "determined" in some way in the grand scheme of eternity.

If my choice was not "determined" in eternity, then how did it happen? Did it come out of a vacuum? Upon what basis did I actually choose to do what I did?

Why is it necessary to affirm the necessity of the existence of something that can never actually happen (the alternatives that are not chosen) for someone to be accountable for what they do?

 

What are you talking about? Who bashed election?

 

I think you are talking about something different then the OP.

 

Exactly and we sin because we freely choose to sin thus free will.

 

Wow! Not many admit that. Where is Oldregular to call this heretical? :laugh:

 

No, you did it willfully and intentionally because (not regardless) it was determined that you would do it.

You chose based on the options available to you at the moment of your choosing. Why, I can not say. I am not privy to the events and musings and influences that have been part of your life. (I would like to be though, you seem to be a great guy.:thumbs

This makes no sense to me, perhaps I miss your meaning. Anyway, speaking of choices that can never actually happen is non-sense. They can not be alternatives (choices) that were not chosen. True alternatives that are not chosen exist at the moment of choice, then are gone. In order to be accountable, you must have been able to choose otherwise at the moment of choice. Not for acting as you were determined to in the grand scheme of things.

 

So, then, the full spectrum of reality even from eternity is in a constant state of flux--creation and destruction. Reality can essential come out of a vacuum and exit into a vacuum. Is that correct?

 

:applause::applause::applause::applause:

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

Tom I think you are correct if one holds to complete and absolute LFW. Most "free willers" I conjecture are not so. No one ( I think) denies that God can and does usurp mans freedom. However, I don't think that is the "norm". Scripture records countless lives of people that God selected to use in ordinary and extraordinary ways. Could these have rejected those roles?.....I honestly don't know, however I do know, if they could have, God certainly would accomplished His objectives with the life of someone else. In my mind, life and existence are intertwined in a "mysterious" way with the dual tension of God and His Sovereignty and the freedom he permits His creatures to possess, express and execute. To me, that makes Him even MORE AWESOME ,glorious and wonderful.

 

The past is gone.....there will be a future.....there is a present.
We are not the same as we were an hour ago. Cells created, died,etc. You can never go back to the state of an hour ago, anymore than you could skip in a minute to the state you will be a day from now because that state has not obtained. Best I can do for now, brother.

 

Well, when I pray for someone, I pray that God will be patient and longsuffering with them, and not "give them over" to a reprobate mind as shown in Romans. I pray that God would bring about those situations that might influence them to be saved.

I believe in free will, but I do not understand this to be free of influence. It is impossible to be free of influence. But free will is that ability to make our own choice between two or more options.

Praying for someone's salvation is similar to when you go on visitation for someone who used to be a regular member, but has stopped coming to church. You go over and try to find out why they have not been coming. It might be the church upset them, but oftentimes it is because of some sin in that person's life. Whatever, you try to remind them why they need to be in church, that it is pleasing to God and his commandment, but also the benefits to them and their family. It can simply be that everyone in the church loves them and misses them and hopes they will come back. This can be very effective. So, this is influence and persuasion, but the person has to make their own decision.

There are so many various ways you can influence a person to do anything. You can lay the ol' guilt trip on them. Or you can use a positive argument, that their kids will grow up to love God and be better people if they attend church, etc...

So, this is what I pray, that God would not give up on this person and continue to draw and influence them to be saved. But the person has to make their own choice in the end.

Personally, I am glad I have free will and make my own choices, but I am often made miserable by the choices I have made. I can recall many stupid decisions I have made in life, but they were my decisions and I must take full responsibility for my choices.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
I pray (unfortunately not often enough) that God will use me to be a light and example, that my words might serve to be persuasive to others as the reality of God, that I may have some small part in nurturing a desire to know this God of creation.

 

Wow, Man you need to stay away from all that coffee. I think it has made you hyperventilate :laugh:

 

Thank you, interesting.

 

Hos,
Thanks and well said, and pretty good clarification.:thumbsup: I wrongly assumed somehow that it didnt need it. Hope I am not leading thread to far astray.
Presentism would best describe it. Here a quote from Alan Rhoda "As the presentist sees it, the passage of time involves a real coming-to-be and a real passing-away as the present state-of-affairs evolves in accordance with its inherent propensities. A prior state causes its successeor by becoming—morphing into, if you will—its successor."
This is what I was trying to convey. Sorry FAL, will go decaf for awhile.:love2: