We don't WANT "Free-Will"

[reformed_baptist]

I think the disagreement is because people want to take one part of the bible and not the whole. Both election and free will are taught. It is not necessary to get them to fit together in our understanding to believe in both. Faith overcomes the inability to explain.
We do it with the Trinity so it should not really be a problem with this issue either if one is willing to believe.

Where is 'free' will taught in the bible?

 

[humblethinker]

It might also be worth noting that the monergist should preach to and pray for all the people of the world as they opportunity for we do not know who is elect and who is reprobate

It seems to me that it is worth noting that if this were a pre-deterministic world, then it is only logical that we attempt to do everything we can regardless of how selfish and then whatever events actually obtain we will then know that they were predetermined to be and all of this to the glory of God!

No one can consistently and logically argically argue that my point is not accurate and still hold to the idea that all events in this world were predetermined.

 

[Winman]

God says there is none that doeth good. Christ said there is none good but God. Are you saying it is possible that it can be otherwise than what God has said?

Are you also saying a corrupt tree can bring forth good fruit?

When the scriptures say there is none that doeth good, no, not one, this is not saying man is unable to do good, you are reading that into scripture. It is simply saying there are none who do good.

And when Jesus said there is none good but God, he is speaking of 100% sinless perfection, he is not saying that every single thing man does is evil. Jesus directly said that sinners can do good.

Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

It is true here that Jesus is saying it is far better to do good to those who mistreat us, nevertheless, Jesus said sinners do good. It is not wrong to do good to those who do good to you, you SHOULD do good to those who do good to you.

When an unregenerate person tells the truth, it is no sin, it is good. Otherwise all of God's commandments are completely unnecessary. Why should a person be honest if it is just as sinful as being dishonest? Nonsensical and absurd to say the least.

It doesn't matter if you lived a perfect life, if you sin just once you are a sinner and must pay the penalty for your sin.

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

First of all, if everything we do is sin, it would be nonsensical to speak of a man keeping the whole law, it would be nonsensical to say a man can obey the law at all. That is not what scriptures teach. The scriptures teach that all men have sinned and "come short" of the glory of God. Men can do good, but they cannot do good enough. To merit salvation you would have to live your entire life without sinning even once as Jesus did. No man has ever done this or ever will.

That being "good" or "righteous" means to be 100% sinless is shown in scripture.

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Here, a "just" man and a "good" man is defined, it is a man that NEVER sins. That does not mean man cannot do good.

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Men can do good, men can perform righteous works. But the moment a man sins, all his righteous works will not be mentioned, in his trespass and sin he has sinned, IN THEM shall he die.

This teaching that unregenerate man cannot do good is total error. All men can do good, but no man has lived perfectly and never sinned (except Jesus), thus there is none good, no, not one.

God himself said men can do righteous works in Eze 18:24.

 

[Winman]

Not only does it say that but I am afraid that is exactly what that means. Without being born again and having the Spirit in us there is nothing good we can do or think. Only the saved have the ability to do good.
I think your understanding is one of the problems in the church. The Pastors have not taught the people just how evil we are. There is nothing in us that is good apart from Christ. Even the good that we would do comes from evil intent so there is nothing good in us. Only that which is done for Christ will stand and is good as no lost person can do anything for Christ so they can do nothing good. Uless our motives are to glorify God even the best we do is a filthy rag, evil and no lost person can have a pure motive to glorify God.

And you err just like Aaron. Jesus himself said sinners do good to those who do good to them. This is not sin, it is not sin to do good to those who do good to you, you SHOULD do good to those who treat you well. Jesus simply said it is a greater good to be like God and do good to those who are evil toward you. Nevertheless, it is not sin to do good to those who love you and treat you well.

Cornelius was not saved, yet he did many good works that were recognized by God. God sent an angel to Cornelius to tell him to send for Peter whereby he and his house would hear words whereby they would be saved. So we know for a FACT that Cornelius was not saved at this point and unregenerate. Cornelius did not receive the Holy Spirit until AFTER Peter came and preached the gospel to him.

Cornelius proves your view to be error.

Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:

Cornelius was not regenerate, but he was a very good man who feared God, prayed always, and gave to the poor. God heard his prayers and recognized his good works.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Was Cornelius saved when Peter said this? Nope.

Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Peter here confirms that Cornelius was not saved when the angel spoke to him.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

This is when Cornelius was regenerated, when he believed the gospel preached to him by Peter and received the Holy Ghost.

Cornelius absolutely refutes the false teaching that unregenerate man cannot do good.

 

[A Faithful Sidekick]

Hmmm... In what way are Christians "capable of choosing outside of their ability"?

Christians have new abilities - the "new nature!"

You seem to think that 'free will' is necessarily defined by 'being able to choose outside of one's ability'. I don't think this is a good definition of 'free will' for anyone, be they unregenerate or regenerate man, or even God. No wonder we have disagreement on this board.

Unregenerate men are not able to choose good. The very best they can hope for is "as filthy rags," according to scripture. Men having "the mind of Christ" have abilities that the unregenerate do not. We can be heard when we pray. We can believe when He speaks to us through His word. We can truly obey out of our new nature. The unregenerate are not capable of these things.

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6).

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be (Romans 8:7).

Without Me you can do nothing (John 15:5).

The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2:14).

See also Eph 2:1-5, Col 2:13, John 6:44

-Robin

 

[A Faithful Sidekick]

How does a Calvinist answer this argument? If you were to pray for a lost person who ends up dying in unbelief (a non-elect reprobate in your system), aren't you praying against the will of God? Aren't you praying for God's glory to be lessoned when you pray for them?

I answer it this way: I pray for the lost, directing my petition to the only One can free an unbeliever to follow Christ. Semi-Pelagians shouldn't ask God at all, since they believe God has nothing to do with it. Don't pray for the lost, pray TO the lost if you're an Arminian / semi-Pelagian, since you believe only the lost are able to choose.

-Robin

 

[Aaron]

When the scriptures say there is none that doeth good, no, not one, this is not saying man is unable to do good, you are reading that into scripture.

Christ said straight out that an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

 

[humblethinker]

Originally Posted by humblethinker
Hmmm... In what way are Christians "capable of choosing outside of their ability"?

A Faithful Sidekick posted: Christians have new abilities - the "new nature!"​

Yet, even then we are not 'capable of choosing outside of our ability'.

 

[webdog]

I answer it this way: I pray for the lost, directing my petition to the only One can free an unbeliever to follow Christ. Semi-Pelagians shouldn't ask God at all, since they believe God has nothing to do with it. Don't pray for the lost, pray TO the lost if you're an Arminian / semi-Pelagian, since you believe only the lost are able to choose.

-Robin

No wonder cal's are so confused...the ignorance and deliberate misrepresentations like that above mistaken for the truth...or even funnier yet..."the gospel"

 

[humblethinker]

No wonder cal's are so confused...the ignorance and deliberate misrepresentations like that above mistaken for the truth...or even funnier yet..."the gospel"

Stopit webdog!!! Calvinism IS the gospel! How dare you deny the gospel!

;-)

 

[A Faithful Sidekick]

No wonder cal's are so confused...the ignorance and deliberate misrepresentations like that above mistaken for the truth...or even funnier yet..."the gospel"

Perhaps I could have put that differently, but it was supposed to evoke thought rather than ridicule.

But, since it prompted only ridicule, I'll not invite any further ridicule by proposing something absurd to make a point.

 

[Iconoclast]

Perhaps I could have put that differently, but it was supposed to evoke thought rather than ridicule.

But, since it prompted only ridicule, I'll not invite any further ridicule by proposing something absurd to make a point.

Your Post was fine. Some on BB do not share the beliefs of the historic church.
And when you cannot answer with scripture....you resort to other things:wavey:

 

[Winman]

Christ said straight out that an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

Jesus also showed we have within our ability to be either a good tree or a corrupt tree.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

The words "either" and "or else" connected to the word "make" shows we have both the option and ability to choose whether we are a good tree that bears good fruit, or a corrupt tree that bears corrupt fruit.

And these were the words of Jesus himself. I will believe the words of Jesus, you can believe your Reformed "scholars".

 

[webdog]

Your Post was fine. Some on BB do not share the beliefs of the historic church.
And when you cannot answer with scripture....you resort to other things:wavey:

^Case in point^

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus also showed we have within our ability to be either a good tree or a corrupt tree.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

The words "either" and "or else" connected to the word "make" shows we have both the option and ability to choose whether we are a good tree that bears good fruit, or a corrupt tree that bears corrupt fruit.

And these were the words of Jesus himself. I will believe the words of Jesus, you can believe your Reformed "scholars".

You have to be joking....please stop.This is lame. Your friends will have to lower this post down through the roof and pray for a healing:laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Perhaps I could have put that differently, but it was supposed to evoke thought rather than ridicule.

But, since it prompted only ridicule, I'll not invite any further ridicule by proposing something absurd to make a point.

There is some missing indigence in here.......ah but whats the use....:laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

^Case in point^

Yes....sadly your posts are a case in point. When is the last time you interacted with a post scripturally and not your little two and three word quips, debate fallacy excuses,and otherwise snide comments.
Maybe you cannot, so i cannot say to much about it. If you cannot,you cannot.
Archangel walked you through 2 cor 5 and offered solid biblical teaching.You not only fail to interact with it,and say...Archangel...thanks for showing me what the text actually says...i will have to re-evaluate my view in light of this.

No...instead you strike out in frustration

Of course it is

...and this statement tells me you are ignorant to my statement.
Non Sequitur. Faith is NEVER a work showing your reasoning to be quite faulty.

You haven't a clue.

No this is not really interacting with the text ...is it? case in point:thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

You have to be joking....please stop.This is lame. Your friends will have to lower this post down through the roof and pray for a healing:laugh:

And as usual, all you can offer for an argument is ridicule. Maybe you should go back to copying and pasting your Reformed scholars. Obviously you cannot come up with a serious rebuttal yourself.

You are an expert at mockery and slander however. I guess a fellow has to go with his strengths. If you can't think, at least you can ridicule.

 

[webdog]

Yes....sadly your posts are a case in point.

Back to 1st grade "nuh-uh" posting I see.

When is the last time you interacted with a post scripturally and not your little two and three word quips, debate fallacy excuses,and otherwise snide comments.

Did just that on this thread, to which Allan further touched on...to which you oddly threw him the thumbs up to.

Maybe you cannot, so i cannot say to much about it. If you cannot,you cannot.
Archangel walked you through 2 cor 5 and offered solid biblical teaching.You not only fail to interact with it,and say...Archangel...thanks for showing me what the text actually says...i will have to re-evaluate my view in light of this.

...and I summarized his eisegesis (what you refer to as "walking through"...more aptly labeled "trampling on", IMO)...to which Allan further touched on...to which you threw up the oddly timed thumbs up.

No...instead you strike out in frustration



No this is not really interacting with the text ...is it? case in point:thumbsup:

:laugh: Frustration. Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

 

[Iconoclast]

And as usual, all you can offer for an argument is ridicule. Maybe you should go back to copying and pasting your Reformed scholars. Obviously you cannot come up with a serious rebuttal yourself.

You are an expert at mockery and slander however. I guess a fellow has to go with his strengths. If you can't think, at least you can ridicule.

Winman,

Jesus also showed we have within our ability to be either a good tree or a corrupt tree.

This kind of post makes a mockery of the scripture. I told you as others have...we cannot hold your hand a read every verse with you.....you are wrong almost everytime....not even close...then you offer this;

And these were the words of Jesus himself. I will believe the words of Jesus, you can believe your Reformed "scholars".

It is your ridicule of what you do not understand ,that invites the responses you get....

9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Your posts have been going in this direction.most do not answer you anymore because of it.