We don't WANT "Free-Will"

[quantumfaith]

Holy Yarn Balls, Batman!

Just wondering if the noncalvinists in this thread would care to correct this man's glaring and irredeemible perversion of the passage before I do.

If I have to, I won't exercise my signature tact and sensitivity.

Hello Aaron......

I am not sure where WM was going but there is that verse, a few down.....

"The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. "

And before your rant against WM (or me or anyone) rather than offering gentle correction in love..... remember too....

"But I tell you that men will have to give an account on the day of judgement for every careless word they have spoken".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Holy Yarn Balls, Batman!

Just wondering if the noncalvinists in this thread would care to correct this man's glaring and irredeemible perversion of the passage before I do.

If I have to, I won't exercise my signature tact and sensitivity.

Wait.... let me get my popcorn!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Skandelon]

This shows shallow thinking . The problem isn't logic, it is understanding God's complete sovereignty over his creation - he works all things according to the purpose of his will, eph 1;11, so that includes means as well as actions.

I believe it is 'shallow thinking' to assume the only way for an all powerful Eternal Being to maintain complete sovereignty over his creation is to control everything they choose to do. I believe God is powerful enough to work all things out for his Glory and to accomplish his plan despite men's evil choices. There is no "LOGICAL" reason to believe otherwise. It also is consistent with the biblical teaching of God's Holiness and men's individual responsibility.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe it is 'shallow thinking' to assume the only way for an all powerful Eternal Being to maintain complete sovereignty over his creation is to control everything they choose to do. I believe God is powerful enough to work all things out for his Glory and to accomplish his plan despite men's evil choices. There is no "LOGICAL" reason to believe otherwise. It also is consistent with the biblical teaching of God's Holiness and men's individual responsibility.

Well will wonders never ....... Ah, here I actually agree with you! Oye Vey!!!:laugh:

 

[quantumfaith]

I believe it is 'shallow thinking' to assume the only way for an all powerful Eternal Being to maintain complete sovereignty over his creation is to control everything they choose to do. I believe God is powerful enough to work all things out for his Glory and to accomplish his plan despite men's evil choices. There is no "LOGICAL" reason to believe otherwise. It also is consistent with the biblical teaching of God's Holiness and men's individual responsibility.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Ooooooh, wish I was not limited to just 4!!!!

 

[Winman]

Holy Yarn Balls, Batman!

Just wondering if the noncalvinists in this thread would care to correct this man's glaring and irredeemible perversion of the passage before I do.

If I have to, I won't exercise my signature tact and sensitivity.

Why do you wait for others to explain this verse for you? Explain it yourself.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

This verse seems very simple and straightforward to me, Jesus is saying to either make yourself good and your fruit or works good, or else make yourself corrupt and your fruit or works corrupt.

Now you explain to me why my interpretation of this verse is error.

I don't care if you fail to use tact or sensitivity, but I hope you will use logic and honesty.

 

[Aaron]

Why do you wait for others to explain this verse for you? Explain it yourself.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

This verse seems very simple and straightforward to me, Jesus is saying to either make yourself good and your fruit or works good, or else make yourself corrupt and your fruit or works corrupt.

Now you explain to me why my interpretation of this verse is error.

I don't care if you fail to use tact or sensitivity, but I hope you will use logic and honesty.

First, I'm known for neither tact nor sensitivity. It was a joke.

Second, if an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit, then to command it to do so by making itself good is just like commanding a pig to fly or a UFO to land.

Third, that is not the commandment. Listen to it paraphrased by the translators of the NLT:

A tree is identified by its fruit. If a tree is good, its fruit will be good. If a tree is bad, its fruit will be bad. You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say.
​

Saying "make the tree good," is saying "decide whether it is good." Just like a financial counsellor might say to his client, "You need to decide what you can afford."

 

[Aaron]

I believe it is 'shallow thinking' to assume the only way for an all powerful Eternal Being to maintain complete sovereignty over his creation is to control everything they choose to do.

:laugh::laugh:

IOW: It's wrong to think that control means to control.

:laugh::laugh:

 

[Winman]

First, I'm known for neither tact nor sensitivity. It was a joke.

I'm not known for tact or sensitivity either, and that's no joke.

Second, if an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit, then to command it to do so by making itself good is just like commanding a pig to fly or a UFO to land.

Exactly. It would be nonsensical for Jesus to tell a person to make themselves good if it were impossible for men to do so. The fact that Jesus told these persons to make themselves good shows that Jesus did not share your view of Total Inability. Jesus did not speak vain or nonsensical words.

There are many other scriptures besides these that tell men to make themselves good.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

I am not saying man is good of himself, but man can respond to God and obey him. Man can obey God and become good. Total Inability is not taught in scripture.

Third, that is not the commandment. Listen to it paraphrased by the translators of the NLT:

A tree is identified by its fruit. If a tree is good, its fruit will be good. If a tree is bad, its fruit will be bad. You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say.
​

Saying "make the tree good," is saying "decide whether it is good." Just like a financial counsellor might say to his client, "You need to decide what you can afford."

Well, do not go beyond what this scripture actually says and shows. Jesus is not saying all men are evil here, but these specific men. And he had just told these very men to either make the tree good and it's fruit good, or make the tree corrupt and it's fruit corrupt. These men by CHOICE were evil.

This passage refutes Total Inability if you will receive it.

 

[Aaron]

Exactly. It would be nonsensical for Jesus to tell a person to make themselves good if it were impossible for men to do so.

That is an arbitrary assumption. The commandment to be perfect and holy does not presuppose an ability to be so.

Be ye, therefore, perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Thou shalt not covet.
​

The fact that Jesus told these persons to make themselves good shows that Jesus did not share your view of Total Inability. Jesus did not speak vain or nonsensical words.

Let me borrow a phrase from Scandal, the only difference being that I will apply it correctly: Question beg much?

There are many other scriptures besides these that tell men to make themselves good.

Eisegesis.

I am not saying man is good of himself, but man can respond to God and obey him. Man can obey God and become good.

So an evil tree CAN bring forth good fruit.

Check. Hey, Jesus, you shoulda checked with Winman before speaking.

This passage refutes Total Inability if you will receive it.

Au contraire.

 

[Winman]

That is an arbitrary assumption. The commandment to be perfect and holy does not presuppose an ability to be so.

Assumption? Jesus himself said either MAKE the tree good and it's fruit good, or else MAKE the tree corrupt and it's fruit corrupt. I accept this verse for just what it says, it is you that assumes Total Inability is true.

Be ye, therefore, perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.​

And yet the scriptures call quite a few men perfect, such as Noah and Job.

Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Thou shalt not covet.

Let me borrow a phrase from Scandal, the only difference being that I will apply it correctly: Question beg much?

It is you that assumes your view is correct, I have shown scripture that refutes it.

Eisegesis.

You haven't explained Matthew 12:33, what did Jesus mean when he said either MAKE the tree good and it's fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt and it's fruit corrupt. What does that mean if I am in error?

So an evil tree CAN bring forth good fruit.

No, a corrupt tree brings forth corrupt fruit, but Jesus said to make yourself either good or corrupt, the choice is ours.

Check. Hey, Jesus, you shoulda checked with Winman before speaking.

I am quoting Jesus himself, it is you that disagrees with what Jesus plainly said. A child could understand Matthew 12:33, nothing difficult about this verse.

Au contraire.

Matt 12:33 and Eze 18:31 both easily refute Total Inability, you cannot explain either verse in your system. That is because your view is not scriptural but man-made doctrine.

 

[Aaron]

And yet the scriptures call quite a few men perfect, such as Noah and Job.

And God judged them both with death.

Listen, your reading of Matt. 12:33 is erroneous and illiterate. I've shown it, and the honest noncalvinists have to admit that your conclusions cannot be drawn from that verse.

 

[Winman]

And God judged them both with death.

In Adam all die physical death (1 Cor 15:22). We do inherit our corruptible bodies from Adam, but our soul and spirit are given by God.

Listen, your reading of Matt. 12:33 is erroneous and illiterate. I've shown it, and the honest noncalvinists have to admit that your conclusions cannot be drawn from that verse.

I haven't seen a non-Cal respond to this verse yet. Just because you or others might disagree with my interpretation doesn't mean I am in error. Matthew 12:33 is very simple and straightforward, Jesus said to either (showing option) make (showing ability) the tree good and it's fruit good, or else (again, option) make (again, ability) the tree corrupt and it's fruit corrupt.

You haven't explained how my interpretation is error, you have simply argued your own presupposition that Total Inability is true. I am showing you that it is not true.

Eze 18:31 is the same, God himself told the Jews to MAKE themselves a new heart and spirit.

 

[Skandelon]

That is an arbitrary assumption. The commandment to be perfect and holy does not presuppose an ability to be so.

Sure it does.

The command most certainly implies ability.

And the mistake you make is to presume that the example of God's demand for Holiness proves your point, but that in itself begs the question because it presumes the means by which men attain holiness isn't actually attainable. Just because one can't attain righteousness by Law through works, doesn't mean they can't attain it by Grace through faith.

You presume that because men can't attain righteousness (holiness) by Law through works that they also can't attain it by Grace through faith, which is biblically unfounded.

So, while you are correct in saying that one can't make themselves holy, you're incorrect in suggesting that they can't be made holy by Grace through faith in Him.

 

[Skandelon]

Aaron,

The mistake you and many others make is presuming that men's faith is meritorious. It's not. It's a filthy rag. It is surrender. It is giving up and letting go. It is falling on your face and abandoning yourself. It is dying to self. Nothing about it is seen as worthy of merit by the world's standard. It is a sign of weakness. It is being needy. It is saying, "I CAN'T DO IT, I GIVE UP!"

God GRACIOUSLY chooses to credit that humble broken response as righteousness. Not because our faith deserves it, but based on HIS GRACIOUS PROVISION ALONE.

Let me give you an example. My four year old son wanted my old iPod very badly. He had a few bucks (which was really my money) so he didn't have near enough money to buy it, but he wanted very badly to earn it however he could. He was willing to work for it, but I thought to myself, "What can a five year old really do that I can't do myself? And what work could he do that's really worth that? He will make a bigger mess if he even tries." But one day, without expecting anything in return he was kind to his sister and gave her one of his favorite stuffed animals. I decided to credit that act to his account and gave him the iPod. Did the act of giving his worthless stuffed animal merit his getting an iPod? No. It was MY CHOICE to allow that act to be credited to his account. I DECIDED to accept that as worthy of an iPod. He didn't earn it. I GAVE something he didn't earn or deserve. Likewise, God CHOSE to credit righteousness to the account of those who have faith. Not because faith earns it, or faith merits salvation, but because God is gracious. See the difference?

 

[Winman]

Sure it does.

The command most certainly implies ability.

And the mistake you make is to presume that the example of God's demand for Holiness proves your point, but that in itself begs the question because it presumes the means by which men attain holiness isn't actually attainable. Just because one can't attain righteousness by Law through works, doesn't mean they can't attain it by Grace through faith.

You presume that because men can't attain righteousness (holiness) by Law through works that they also can't attain it by Grace through faith, which is biblically unfounded.

So, while you are correct in saying that one can't make themselves holy, you're incorrect in suggesting that they can't be made holy by Grace through faith in Him.

I agree completely, and this is what Jesus meant in Matt 12:33. Noah and Job were made perfect through faith, just as Abraham was.

 

[Amy.G]

Aaron,

The mistake you and many others make is presuming that men's faith is meritorious. It's not. It's a filthy rag. It is surrender. It is giving up and letting go. It is falling on your face and abandoning yourself. It is dying to self. Nothing about it is seen as worthy of merit by the world's standard. It is a sign of weakness. It is being needy. It is saying, "I CAN'T DO IT, I GIVE UP!"

God GRACIOUSLY chooses to credit that humble broken response as righteousness. Not because our faith deserves it, but based on HIS GRACIOUS PROVISION ALONE.

Let me give you an example. My four year old son wanted my old iPod very badly. He had a few bucks (which was really my money) so he didn't have near enough money to buy it, but he wanted very badly to earn it however he could. He was willing to work for it, but I thought to myself, "What can a five year old really do that I can't do myself? And what work could he do that's really worth that? He will make a bigger mess if he even tries." But one day, without expecting anything in return he was kind to his sister and gave her one of his favorite stuffed animals. I decided to credit that act to his account and gave him the iPod. Did the act of giving his worthless stuffed animal merit his getting an iPod? No. It was MY CHOICE to allow that act to be credited to his account. I DECIDED to accept that as worthy of an iPod. He didn't earn it. I GAVE something he didn't earn or deserve. Likewise, God CHOSE to credit righteousness to the account of those who have faith. Not because faith earns it, or faith merits salvation, but because God is gracious. See the difference?

You "chose" to give it to him because he did something that pleased you. God chooses to save us even though we're sinners, having done nothing to please Him. You're looking at salvation through man's eyes, not God's.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The mistake you and many others make is presuming that men's faith is meritorious. It's not. It's a filthy rag. It is surrender. It is giving up and letting go. It is falling on your face and abandoning yourself. It is dying to self. Nothing about it is seen as worthy of merit by the world's standard. It is a sign of weakness. It is being needy. It is saying, "I CAN'T DO IT, I GIVE UP!"

God GRACIOUSLY chooses to credit that humble broken response as righteousness. Not because our faith deserves it, but based on HIS GRACIOUS PROVISION ALONE.

Let me give you an example. My four year old son wanted my old iPod very badly. He had a few bucks (which was really my money) so he didn't have near enough money to buy it, but he wanted very badly to earn it however he could. He was willing to work for it, but I thought to myself, "What can a five year old really do that I can't do myself? And what work could he do that's really worth that? He will make a bigger mess if he even tries." But one day, without expecting anything in return he was kind to his sister and gave her one of his favorite stuffed animals. I decided to credit that act to his account and gave him the iPod. Did the act of giving his worthless stuffed animal merit his getting an iPod? No. It was MY CHOICE to allow that act to be credited to his account. I DECIDED to accept that as worthy of an iPod. He didn't earn it. I GAVE something he didn't earn or deserve. Likewise, God CHOSE to credit righteousness to the account of those who have faith. Not because faith earns it, or faith merits salvation, but because God is gracious. See the difference?

:thumbs::wavey::wavey::jesus:

Masterful post

 

[Winman]

You "chose" to give it to him because he did something that pleased you. God chooses to save us even though we're sinners, having done nothing to please Him. You're looking at salvation through man's eyes, not God's.

And faith pleases God.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The scriptures say it is impossible to please God without faith, therefore faith pleases God.

 

[mandym]

Well, consider yourself outside the norm. !

This is not true at all.