We don't WANT "Free-Will"

[HeirofSalvation]

My best friend: (a non-Calvinist)...and I, have a saying that we like to confirm with one another...We sometimes like to re-iterate to one another that:
"Free-will is a _ _ _ _ _ "

Do Calvinists unerstand this? Do they understand that "Free-willers" take little or NO comfort whatsoever in the notion that we have "free-will"?....Our own sin is (Psychologically) "Ever before me"....We see ourselves, as so ridiculously to blame, personally, as beings capable of righteousness...Yet ever so sinful...

Calvinists seem to like to argue that the "Free-will" idea is somehow a form of comfort or an escape for us...It is no such thing (I assure you).
NOTHING would bring the "sheep" more comfort (in the Arminian fold)...Than to think that GOD is merely in his own time, and according to his Sovereign will, perfecting us "elected" to be more perfectly "conformed" according to his own "Sovereign will"... Do Calvinsts ACTUALLY BELIEVE that we LIKE the notion of "Free-Will"? Do Calvinists actually think that we would..in our "flesh" wish to believe in such a thing??? As a rule...we don't...It renders our own sense of guilt so personally and inescapably our own. We feel so keenly our own sense of responsibility, and our own sense of personal guilt. Our "flesh" wants nothing more than to blame our own sinfulness on something OTHER than our own choices...I make no argument about whether the Scriptures teach one point of view, or another....I merely think that if this issue is understood and resolved..than many a Calvinist will pause before adopting the view they posses. It is as painful for an Arminian to adopt our view as it is painful for a Calvinist to adopt theirs...They both hurt...Only a liar speaks other-wise.

I can understand the many Calvinist arguments which are posed to support their point of view...But NOTHING actually sickens me more than their false idea that non-Calvinists are so...because we "LIKE" or are drawn to...or "WISH" or "WANT" to have "free-will"....We don't. It makes us sick...and we wish it weren't the case, quite often actually. It lays upon us nothing more than a weight of guilt which is anything but comforting...We quite often HATE the fact that we have "free-will"...

Whatever the reason we believe in it...it isn't because we "like" it, or find it to be somehow more comforting.

Many Calvinist assumptions and their Apologetics might fall away if this mis-conception is cleared away...

I Believe in "free-will"...It would be of in-estimable comfort to me if I didnt't!!!

Do any Arms/free-willers know what I mean by this, who might attest to it?

 

[AresMan]

My best friend: (a non-Calvinist)...and I, have a saying that we like to confirm with one another...We sometimes like to re-iterate to one another that:
"Free-will is a _ _ _ _ _ "

Do Calvinists unerstand this? Do they understand that "Free-willers" take little or NO comfort whatsoever in the notion that we have "free-will"?....Our own sin is (Psychologically) "Ever before me"....We see ourselves, as so ridiculously to blame, personally, as beings capable of righteousness...Yet ever so sinful...

Calvinists seem to like to argue that the "Free-will" idea is somehow a form of comfort or an escape for us...It is no such thing (I assure you).
NOTHING would bring the "sheep" more comfort (in the Arminian fold)...Than to think that GOD is merely in his own time, and according to his Sovereign will, perfecting us "elected" to be more perfectly "conformed" according to his own "Sovereign will"... Do Calvinsts ACTUALLY BELIEVE that we LIKE the notion of "Free-Will"? Do Calvinists actually think that we would..in our "flesh" wish to believe in such a thing??? As a rule...we don't...It renders our own sense of guilt so personally and inescapably our own. We feel so keenly our own sense of responsibility, and our own sense of personal guilt. Our "flesh" wants nothing more than to blame our own sinfulness on something OTHER than our own choices...I make no argument about whether the Scriptures teach one point of view, or another....I merely think that if this issue is understood and resolved..than many a Calvinist will pause before adopting the view they posses. It is as painful for an Arminian to adopt our view as it is painful for a Calvinist to adopt theirs...They both hurt...Only a liar speaks other-wise.

I can understand the many Calvinist arguments which are posed to support their point of view...But NOTHING actually sickens me more than their false idea that non-Calvinists are so...because we "LIKE" or are drawn to...or "WISH" or "WANT" to have "free-will"....We don't. It makes us sick...and we wish it weren't the case, quite often actually. It lays upon us nothing more than a weight of guilt which is anything but comforting...We quite often HATE the fact that we have "free-will"...

Whatever the reason we believe in it...it isn't because we "like" it, or find it to be somehow more comforting.

Many Calvinist assumptions and their Apologetics might fall away if this mis-conception is cleared away...

I Believe in "free-will"...It would be of in-estimable comfort to me if I didnt't!!!

Do any Arms/free-willers know what I mean by this, who might attest to it?

Well, consider yourself outside the norm. When I was a free-willer, it was because I wanted libertarian free will to be true.

My open theist family and friends are so committed to libertarian free will that they get frustrated if I merely try to prove a prophecy of God involving actions of people was guaranteed to happen. In other words, if I simply try to argue for God's integrity with not being wrong, the first thing that comes to their mind is "Are you implying that [insert horrific violent act] was 'determined'"?!

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Well, consider yourself outside the norm. When I was a free-willer, it was because I wanted libertarian free will to be true.

My open theist family and friends are so committed to libertarian free will that they get frustrated if I merely try to prove a prophecy of God involving actions of people was guaranteed to happen. In other words, if I simply try to argue for God's integrity with not being wrong, the first thing that comes to their mind is "Are you implying that [insert horrific violent act] was 'determined'"?!
__________________

The OP is obviously a sweeping generalization...presumably neither true of all people nor in all circumstances.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The OP is obviously a sweeping generalization...presumably neither true of all people nor in all circumstances.

Nevertheless, no matter who you are or think you are, you are still responsible for your own sins. You do not get a pass simply because you believe in one theology, doctrine etc. We all must own up to sin nature & sins committed. You sin & you own it!

 

[AresMan]

Nevertheless, no matter who you are or think you are, you are still responsible for your own sins. You do not get a pass simply because you believe in one theology, doctrine etc. We all must own up to sin nature & sins committed. You sin & you own it!

:thumbs::thumbs:

I am 100% responsible for any sin that I commit (whether or not it is "determined" in the eternal grand scheme of things). If I do it willfully and intentionally, I am guilty.

 

[Cypress]

I am 100% responsible for any sin that I commit (whether or not it is "determined" in the eternal grand scheme of things). If I do it willfully and intentionally, I am guilty.

If it is determined, you only think you did it willfully and intentionally. You can do neither if you had no alternative. Really try and wrap thoughts around this. It is no paradox. Go to the light....lol.raying::love2:raying::love2:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If it is determined, you only think you did it willfully and intentionally. You can do neither if you had no alternative. Really try and wrap thoughts around this. It is no paradox. Go to the light....lol.raying::love2:raying::love2:

Who says you have no alternative? Are you saying that God is the author of sin & we are merely Puppets?

Your going to have to take this slow with me as I also used to believe in this total Free Will Consept as an ex Catholic. So what exactly is free will? is it that “God does not assert any power or influence over the will of human beings?” In other words, you call all the shots?!?

 

[Cypress]

Who says you have no alternative? Are you saying that God is the author of sin & we are merely Puppets?

Simply, yes. If all is determined, then you and I have no real alternatives. End of story.:BangHead:
Do you believe all is determined? If so, in what way are you free to choose other than what you do?
Answer that and we should let the thread get back on track, okay?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Simply, yes. If all is determined, then you and I have no real alternatives. End of story.:BangHead:
Do you believe all is determined?

NO, I have moved on from that simplistic view. In my opinion, there no such thing as free will. However, I do believe in a limited will. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Cypress]

NO, I have moved on from that simplistic view. In my opinion, there no such thing as free will. However, I do believe in a limited will. :smilewinkgrin:

Sorry but I edited an addition as you were replying. There is an additional question that I posed to you.

 

[Tom Butler]

This thread got me to thinking. When we pray for the salvation of a sinner, what exactly are we asking God to do?

Aren't we asking God to send the Holy Spirit to open his spiritual eyes? To convict him of his sin?

Are we asking God to save that sinner if the sinner is willing? Or, are we really asking God to make him willing?

Or, are we asking God to save him even if he's not willing? I tell you, that is certainly my prayer for my lost loved ones.

I guess my point is that if you believe in free will, there's no point in praying for God to save sinners.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This thread got me to thinking. When we pray for the salvation of a sinner, what exactly are we asking God to do?

Aren't we asking God to send the Holy Spirit to open his spiritual eyes? To convict him of his sin?

Are we asking God to save that sinner if the sinner is willing? Or, are we really asking God to make him willing?

Or, are we asking God to save him even if he's not willing? I tell you, that is certainly my prayer for my lost loved ones.

I guess my point is that if you believe in free will, there's no point in praying for God to save sinners.

Your on the money.... the Free Will Camp, I think anyway is saying....."God does not assert any power or influence over the will of human beings.” But its the onus of the "Willers" to correct me if I am in error.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Simply, yes. If all is determined, then you and I have no real alternatives. End of story.:BangHead:
Do you believe all is determined? If so, in what way are you free to choose other than what you do?
Answer that and we should let the thread get back on track, okay?

As I said previous, I believe in Limited Free Will. Therefore we have a will with the capability to make natural decisions both wise and unwise. Likewise, after we are born of the spirit, we have a will with the capability to make spiritual decisions both wise and unwise. Again, this makes sense…it is logical and also very comforting.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Your on the money.... the Free Will Camp, I think anyway is saying....."God does not assert any power or influence over the will of human beings.” But its the onus of the "Willers" to correct me if I am in error.

No believer in Free Will properly defines it that way. Why make it an all or nothing proposition? Free willer's don't think that way at all.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No believer in Free Will properly defines it that way. Why make it an all or nothing proposition? Free willer's don't think that way at all.

Then its up to you to explain it correct!

 

[HeirofSalvation]

This thread got me to thinking. When we pray for the salvation of a sinner, what exactly are we asking God to do?

Aren't we asking God to send the Holy Spirit to open his spiritual eyes? To convict him of his sin?

Are we asking God to save that sinner if the sinner is willing? Or, are we really asking God to make him willing?

Or, are we asking God to save him even if he's not willing? I tell you, that is certainly my prayer for my lost loved ones.

I guess my point is that if you believe in free will, there's no point in praying for God to save sinners.

Usually they are praying for a convicting drawing from the Holy Spirit, or for God to possibly create circumstances in that person's life which would help him/her more keenly feel their need for salvation. Or something along those lines. One thing, however, is that it is not in the least logical for a Calvinist to do so, because that is a decision already made by God from eternity past.

 

[Cypress]

As I said previous, I believe in Limited Free Will. Therefore we have a will with the capability to make natural decisions both wise and unwise. Likewise, after we are born of the spirit, we have a will with the capability to make spiritual decisions both wise and unwise. Again, this makes sense…it is logical and also very comforting.

Thanks.....

 

[webdog]

This thread got me to thinking. When we pray for the salvation of a sinner, what exactly are we asking God to do?

Aren't we asking God to send the Holy Spirit to open his spiritual eyes? To convict him of his sin?

Are we asking God to save that sinner if the sinner is willing? Or, are we really asking God to make him willing?

Or, are we asking God to save him even if he's not willing? I tell you, that is certainly my prayer for my lost loved ones.

I guess my point is that if you believe in free will, there's no point in praying for God to save sinners.

Faulty logic. Using this logic calvinists who pray for the same thing are praying for something God may have not decreed since the foundation of the world.

Actually, based on the above scenario I am praying that the person will repent of "exchanging the truth for a lie" and for God to be merciful in not permanently hardening the person.

 

[Skandelon]

This thread got me to thinking. When we pray for the salvation of a sinner, what exactly are we asking God to do?

Aren't we asking God to send the Holy Spirit to open his spiritual eyes? To convict him of his sin?

Yes and Yes, but we don't believe this work is irresistibly applied, as Calvinists do.

Are we asking God to save that sinner if the sinner is willing? Or, are we really asking God to make him willing?

We are hoping, as Paul did in Romans 11:14, that their wills are provoked and they may turn from their unbelief and be saved.

Or, are we asking God to save him even if he's not willing? I tell you, that is certainly my prayer for my lost loved ones.

Even Calvinists don't believe that God is saving people who are not willing. Whether the will is change effectually by God or not, the person must be willing.

I guess my point is that if you believe in free will, there's no point in praying for God to save sinners.

As explained, that depends on the perspective. As one already mentioned, it seems much more unnecessary to pray in the Calvinistic worldview than in the non-Calvinstis world view, because at least in our worldview the prayer may have an effect on the outcome.

 

[Skandelon]

Faulty logic. Using this logic calvinists who pray for the same thing are praying for something God may have not decreed since the foundation of the world.

Actually, based on the above scenario I am praying that the person will repent of "exchanging the truth for a lie" and for God to be merciful in not permanently hardening the person.

More than that, if a Calvinist, who believes that God hasn't chosen to save some for His own Glory, and he is praying for a non-elect reprobate then ultimately he is praying for something that would lesson God's Glory. Thus, for the Calvinists, a prayer for someone who God hasn't chosen is virtually a prayer to lesson the Glory of God. Cals are praying against God's will if they pray for the wrong lost person.