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We don't WANT "Free-Will"
- Thread starter HeirofSalvation
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Then your question is arguing my point.
I did.
It absolutely is necessary to you, otherwise you would not be hell-bent on insisting that evil men can do good works.
Wow, change the word to noncalvinist, and you've just described your and Scandal's strategies.
Good work :thumbs:
Done.
Back to the OP.....as I posted: Can anyone comment on this? Are we adherents because we "WANT" to be? Or are we adherents because we feel it is existentionally obvious....Aresman, BRILLIANTLY, blurred the distinction, by implying that we "wanted" to believe it only for reasons of "theodicy"....but do we want to "existentially?"
Premise of my OP...NO, we don't.
Premise of my OP...NO, we don't.
So, he's NOT guilty of all?
This easily answers why someone might be drawn to it from the angle of arguing a Theodicy...but I am only speaking on an existential level. You seem to think I am arguing from appeals like you were, or your relatives...forget the Theodicy for a second...I am arguing on a more personal and existential level.
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Not when he does good, no, only when he does evil.....you fail to distinguish between the very notion of "good" and "evil" you are blurring the lines of distinction between "good" and "evil" and it is dangerous.... very dangerous, and I beg you to reconsider.
Please directly answer the passages proffered as they were offered to you....or cease the bloviation...
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Are you asking, "If a boy steals a piece of gum is he guilty of mass murder?"
Was Cain guilty of murder prior to killing his brother? If so, why wasn't he punished by God before the killing?
Falling short of God's glory, and deserving eternal punishment for offending an eternally Holy God is not equal to being guilty of breaking every known law. Yes, the punishment is the same for all offenses, but that is not because of the nature of the offense itself, but because the nature of the One offended.
Sin is only sin because God says so. It wouldn't have been wrong to eat of that tree unless God said it was wrong. Likewise, faith wouldn't result in salvation unless God says so. Faith, as Piper explains, doesn't merit salvation. God, in His Grace, chose to COUNT faith as righteousness. Faith isn't a WORK! If it is, then you have some explaining to do.
Do you actually believe we are saved by Grace through works? Even a work effectually caused by God's grace is still a work, so would you like to affirm once and for all that you affirm that we are all saved by grace through works?
I love Jesus
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Heir, don't go here, keep your cool.
Now I'm going to say something that you will all disagree with.
No filthy rag was originally a filthy rag. I have some old jeans with holes in them, and some old shirts that are stained from work, but neither started out that way. At first neither was torn, and neither was stained.
Many overlook this figure. Man is made upright (Ecc 7:29) but has sought out many inventions. Man has "gone astray" and "gone out of the way" and "become filthy" or "corrupt". This is what the scriptures teach about the nature of man.
Sometimes the obvious is not so obvious, but no filthy rag started out as a filthy rag.
When the scriptures say that all our righteousnesses (proving that we actually perform righteous works) are as filthy rags, it is not saying anything bad about our righteous works themselves, but just like clothing, our righteousness has been marred, torn, and stained by sin.
Now I'm going to say something that you will all disagree with.
No filthy rag was originally a filthy rag. I have some old jeans with holes in them, and some old shirts that are stained from work, but neither started out that way. At first neither was torn, and neither was stained.
Many overlook this figure. Man is made upright (Ecc 7:29) but has sought out many inventions. Man has "gone astray" and "gone out of the way" and "become filthy" or "corrupt". This is what the scriptures teach about the nature of man.
Sometimes the obvious is not so obvious, but no filthy rag started out as a filthy rag.
When the scriptures say that all our righteousnesses (proving that we actually perform righteous works) are as filthy rags, it is not saying anything bad about our righteous works themselves, but just like clothing, our righteousness has been marred, torn, and stained by sin.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
You need to define what you mean by 'good.' (which I asked you to do back on post 145) I'll even give you multiple choice:
Good = in accordance with the law (telling the truth, tithing, helping those in need, providing for your child, not making a graven image, etc)
ORRRRR
Good = meriting God's grace
ORRRRR
Good = meriting God's grace
I love Jesus
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Yes, when a man commits an offense (sin, transgression of the law) he is guilty of breaking the whole law, but not when he does good. When a man tells the truth, whether he is regenerate or not, he has not committed an offense against the law, he has obeyed the law. Sin is defined as transgressing the law, you cannot transgress the law when you obey it, that is a direct contradiction and impossible to be true. Yet, that is what YOU believe.
You said everything a man does is sin, that is pure error. When a man obeys the law and does what God commands, that is no sin.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
James explains here clearly what is meant. If a man offends one law, he is guilty of simply breaking "the law" as a whole. But James is speaking of SIN here, he speaks of adultery or murder. These are sins. James does not say if you tell the truth you are guilty of transgressing the law. Unregenerate men tell the truth all the time, some unregenerate men are more honest than Christians.
In your view the law is absolutely meaningless, a man is guilty whether he commits a sin or not. It is the ol' "D*mned if you do, and d*mned if you don't".
In your view, a man is guilty simply because he exists, not because he has committed sin. Maybe you believe that.
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What authority do you have that we "ALL" disagree with this? Do we? Have we "ALL" expressed as much? Can you speak for others?
I do not have all things worked out yet....but I am (sorta) committed to the idea of "Original Sin"...but I distinguish it from "Original Guilt"...as they are in no direct way strictly the same....and you have no right to speak for others on that one.
What authority do you have that we "ALL" disagree with this? Do we? Have we "ALL" expressed as much? Can you speak for others?
I do not have all things worked out yet....but I am (sorta) committed to the idea of "Original Sin"...but I distinguish it from "Original Guilt"...as they are in no direct way strictly the same....and you have no right to speak for others on that one.
You are correct, but by experience very few reject Original Sin as I do. I used to believe in Original Sin because that is what I was taught. It seemed so natural, we all sin because we are sinners. It feels comfortable. But it also seems UNJUST.
But over the years as I read scripture I noticed that scripture described us as "going bad". It never says we were originally evil, it says we corrupted ourselves, or that we have turned out of the way, or "become" filthy. I am a stickler for words, and these words stuck with me.
If you are born evil, then you cannot "become" evil, as you were always evil. Just as someone who was born wealthy would never tell another person they "became" wealthy. However, a person who was born poor but worked hard and accrued wealth would tell someone they "became" rich. To become something is to take on a new identity, form, or quality. That is the meaning of the word.
But Original Sin is another subject we can discuss some other time if you'd like, this is not the thread.
The scriptures do not teach Total Inability. Matthew 12:33 shows man has both the option and ability to make himself good. He does this by trusting in Jesus and having his sins washed away, and given a new nature. Or, a man can reject Jesus and remain evil.
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Winman,
Would you agree with the boards SOF on the doctrine of man:
Would you agree with the boards SOF on the doctrine of man:
III. Man
Man is the special creation of God, made in His own image. He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God's creation. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love.
Genesis 1:26-30; 2:5,7,18-22; 3; 9:6; Psalms 1; 8:3-6; 32:1-5; 51:5; Isaiah 6:5; Jeremiah 17:5; Matthew 16:26; Acts 17:26-31; Romans 1:19-32; 3:10-18,23; 5:6,12,19; 6:6; 7:14-25; 8:14-18,29; 1 Corinthians 1:21-31; 15:19,21-22; Ephesians 2:1-22; Colossians 1:21-22; 3:9-11.
Man is the special creation of God, made in His own image. He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God's creation. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love.
Genesis 1:26-30; 2:5,7,18-22; 3; 9:6; Psalms 1; 8:3-6; 32:1-5; 51:5; Isaiah 6:5; Jeremiah 17:5; Matthew 16:26; Acts 17:26-31; Romans 1:19-32; 3:10-18,23; 5:6,12,19; 6:6; 7:14-25; 8:14-18,29; 1 Corinthians 1:21-31; 15:19,21-22; Ephesians 2:1-22; Colossians 1:21-22; 3:9-11.
I do not agree with the part I bolded. I believe all men are made upright (Ecc 7:29) but soon after birth, when a person has reached a degree of maturity where they can understand right and wrong before God, ALL MEN choose to knowingly and willingly sin against God.
I do not believe God holds little children accountable for any sins they might commit. I base this on Deut 1:39, Isa 7:16, Jon 4:11, Rom 7:9-11, and many other verses.
I do not like the term sin nature, it is not found in scripture. I believe all men are born "flesh" with lusts and desires that tempt them to sin. I believe Jesus Christ was also born flesh with these same lusts and desires, though he never obeyed these lusts when they would have caused him to sin.
I believe Adam and Eve were created flesh and had these same lusts and desires. It is clear that Eve demonstrated the lust of the flesh (the fruit looked good for food), the lust of the eyes (the fruit was beautiful to look upon), and the pride of life (the fruit was DESIRED to make one wise) BEFORE she actually sinned and ate of this forbidden fruit. So man has always had these lusts and desires.
It is not our flesh with these desires that makes us sinful. Though Eve had these natural lusts of the flesh, God called Adam and Eve "very good". Only when she actually sinned did she become "sinful".
I believe the same for all men, we are born flesh like Adam and Eve and are "very good" until we actually commit sin as Adam and Eve did.
Now, I do believe the flesh can become very corrupt through practice and habit of sin. I would say a person can become addicted to sin and find it almost impossible to break this habit. An example might be drinking, but it applies to any sin, at first a person drinks out of choice. Once a person continues to drink, they can become addicted to it and find it almost impossible to quit. I believe all sin works similar to this.
It is necessary I agree perfectly with BB's SOF?
Hey, Ma, look at me! No hands!:tongue3:
It's really very simple, when James said that one is guilty of all, he meant all. Not that he is simply accounted to be guilty of all. He is, in reality, guilty of all. Love is the fulfillment of the law, and one who breaks one part (as far was we can tell) neither loves his brother nor God. He loves himself, and to not love God with ALL one's heart and soul and mind and strength is idolatry and blasphemy. To not love one's neighbor as himself is to murder him, and steal from him and lie to him and to covet the things that are his due.
And yes, Cain murdered Abel in his heart long before he raised his hand against him, and who said that Cain was not walking under God's judgment?
Here is where you need to learn to put a difference between Heaven and earth. The law was given to man. On earth, men judge the outward actions of one another. Men cannot see the heart, and therefore, though one's anger is truly murder, and we know that to be the case, because there is no outward act of murder, we may not judge it as such, nor are we given the authority to deprive a man of life, liberty or property simply because he is angry with his brother.
We must understand the desperate condition of sinners. Men are not people who in the eyes of Heaven sometimes do good things and sometimes do bad things. Men are evil, corrupt and vile creatures at heart, and since every act, even the things that on the outside appear good, like a man giving his son a fish, springs from corruption, they are corrupt.
They are not merely unclean and vile when compared to something else, they are by nature unclean and vile. They are as filthy rags.
I'll wager you don't love Him as much as He has commanded and of which He is worthy.
In fact, I'll wager you fall far short of that demand.
Let God be true and every man a liar.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
So, you believe there are two way into heaven? Either by Christ's provision through the cross, or death prior to becoming sinful?
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