We don't WANT "Free-Will"

[psalms109:31]

Isaiah 6:
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

When we compare our self to God no matter how righteous we think we are, we are undone before the Lord our God. So we must depend on Him to make us whole not what we can do. Jesus will change us. We in Him and Him in us, for without him we can do no good.

 

[Skandelon]

You need to define what you mean by 'good.' (which I asked you to do back on post 145) I'll even give you multiple choice:

Good = in accordance with the law (telling the truth, tithing, helping those in need, providing for your child, not making a graven image, etc)

ORRRRR

Good = meriting God's grace​

Aaron, you still haven't defined what you mean by 'good.' You continue to avoid defining the terms so as to confound the matter at hand. Someone can do something that is in accordance with the law without it being 'pleasing to God' or 'righteous.' They can speak truth, but not in love. They can do what is right but with the wrong motive. But just about any Calvinistic scholar is quick to explain that 'Total Depravity' does NOT mean everyone is as bad as they could be, which is what you seem to be arguing. Just define your terms and most of your confusion on this matter will disappear.

My suspension is that you'd rather confound the matter than actually admit you were talking about 'good' as being meritorious, while we were not.

 

[Skandelon]

I'll wager you don't love Him as much as He has commanded and of which He is worthy.

In fact, I'll wager you fall far short of that demand.

And yet a Gracious God can choose to count his mustard seed size faith/love to his account as righteousness. It's not meritorious! You have yet to deal with that point. Our faith doesn't merit or deserve God's grace. God's grace makes our little bit of faith and love count.

"...your faith has made you well." -Jesus

"God makes you have faith so that God can make you well." -Aaron

"Ye of little faith, when will you believe?" -Jesus

"Ye of little faith, when will God grant you more?" -Aaron​

 

[convicted1]

Yes, when a man commits an offense (sin, transgression of the law) he is guilty of breaking the whole law, but not when he does good. When a man tells the truth, whether he is regenerate or not, he has not committed an offense against the law, he has obeyed the law. Sin is defined as transgressing the law, you cannot transgress the law when you obey it, that is a direct contradiction and impossible to be true. Yet, that is what YOU believe.

You said everything a man does is sin, that is pure error. When a man obeys the law and does what God commands, that is no sin.

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

James explains here clearly what is meant. If a man offends one law, he is guilty of simply breaking "the law" as a whole. But James is speaking of SIN here, he speaks of adultery or murder. These are sins. James does not say if you tell the truth you are guilty of transgressing the law. Unregenerate men tell the truth all the time, some unregenerate men are more honest than Christians.

In your view the law is absolutely meaningless, a man is guilty whether he commits a sin or not. It is the ol' "D*mned if you do, and d*mned if you don't".

In your view, a man is guilty simply because he exists, not because he has committed sin. Maybe you believe that.

Remember, Bro. Winman, keeping the Law gets no one to heaven. One could possibly keep the Law(not really though, just throwing this in as an example), and still die lost. The Law only brought guilt and condemnation, because Christ was the only One who could keep it. If you got to heaven via the Law, it would be by works and not Grace.

 

[Winman]

So, you believe there are two way into heaven? Either by Christ's provision through the cross, or death prior to becoming sinful?

What is the alternative? If you believe we are born sinful, then you must believe babies and little children go to hell.

We have all read the parable of the prodigal son. Most folks teach this is a backslidden Christian, but I believe this is speaking of a person simply going out in sin and becoming lost, and then repenting and returning to the Lord. Twice Jesus said this young man was alive AGAIN.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

It was Luke chapter 15 that caused me to seriously question Original Sin. Jesus first tells a story of a shepherd who had 100 sheep. One is lost, he searches and recovers it. Then Jesus explains this is a sinner who has repented. But originally the sheep was not lost, but was IN the flock.

He then tells a story about a woman with 10 pieces of silver. One is lost, she searches and recovers it. But originally the coin was not lost. Again, Jesus says this is a lost sinner who repents, and there is great joy and celebration when this sinner repents.

Then, when the prodigal son repents, twice Jesus says this young man is alive AGAIN. Now, this did not match up with Original Sin as I had been taught. If we are all born dead in sin, separated from God, it would be impossible to say we were alive AGAIN, but that is exactly what Jesus said.

So, these three stories (which are one), made me to seriously question OS.

But there was more. Who was the elder son? The scriptures say this older brother NEVER transgressed his father's commandment at any time. The father actually confirms this is true, read carefully;

Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

The elder son complained that for "many years" he had served his father, and had never transgressed his father's commandment at any time. Who could ever say this?

Yet, the father did not correct the elder son, but confirmed his claim to be true. He called him "Son" and said "thou art EVER with me", and "ALL that I have is THINE".

I have come to believe this is a person who died when they were a baby or a young child. They never sinned against God. They have been EVER with God.

But note very importantly, there was never a celebration for the elder son.

You may disagree with my interpretation of Luke 15, but I have thought about it long and hard for many years and prayed about it, and this is what I believe it is teaching.

 

[Aaron]

Aaron, you still haven't defined what you mean by 'good.' .

There is none good but God, Matt. 19:7.

 

[Aaron]

And yet a Gracious God can choose to count his mustard seed size faith/love to his account as righteousness.

Wrong again. Either make the tree evil and his fruit evil, or make the tree good and his fruit good.

God does not accept fruit from corrupt trees. That's not what grace is. Grace is commanding a dead man to rise up and walk, and breathing life into him so that he may rise up and walk.

"...your faith has made you well." -Jesus

"God makes you have faith so that God can make you well." -Aaron

"Ye of little faith, when will you believe?" -Jesus

"Ye of little faith, when will God grant you more?" -Aaron
​

That's Paul too. He called Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.

The account of Lazarus according to Scandal:

Jesus: Lazarus, come forth!


(No response)


Jesus: Gotta have some kind of response, ol' buddy.


Martha: Lord, he stinketh.


Jesus: Pee yew! He really does, but you know what? I'll graciously accept that smell. (Aside) So that's what the frankincense was for. (To the crowd) Untie him!

Martha: But Lord, He's not moving or breathing. He's just stinking.

Jesus: (Pinches his nose.) Not to me. I'm counting that smell as life. Anyone got a match for this incense?

(The crowd responds with bewildered looks.)

Oh, wrong century. My omniscience sometimes gets the better of me.
​

 

[quantumfaith]

Off topic, but wanted to share the following beautiful musical piece. It is the Lord's Prayer in Syriac Aramaic, believed by many to be the language spoken by Jesus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dooYEffRpzU

 

[Skandelon]

There is none good but God, Matt. 19:7.

Oh, well, if that is the way you are using the word "good" then even Jesus doesn't meet the standard, so that is a whole other discussion. Not even Christians, who are made into 'good trees' are really 'good,' nor do do they produce 'good fruit,' if this is you application of the word 'good.' Are you sure you want to go with that definition?

Could it be that Jesus was simply saying that nothing is good unless God says so? Kind of like what I said a few posts back? God COUNTS something that is not worthy as worthy because He is gracious? Could that be what he is saying? hmmmm

 

[webdog]

There is none good but God, Matt. 19:7.

Yeah...that is almost a definition.

 

[Skandelon]

Wrong again. Either make the tree evil and his fruit evil, or make the tree good and his fruit good.

I thought you said nothing was good except God? Now you think trees are good and their fruit is good? How is that? Hmmmm

The account of Lazarus according to Scandal:
Jesus: Lazarus, come forth!

The account of blind Bartimaeus according to Aaron:

God: (effectually makes Bart able to see)
Bart: "Jesus help me to see"
Jesus: "Your faith has made you well, which really means God made you able to see so that you would ask me to make you able to see, so now you can see. ? See Calvin's institutes."
Bart: "Uh, ok."

 

[webdog]

So, you believe there are two way into heaven? Either by Christ's provision through the cross, or death prior to becoming sinful?

It is not an either / or but a both / and.

Christ's death atoned for the universe as a whole, and unborn children and infants are part of that category.

 

[Aaron]

Oh, well, if that is the way you are using the word "good" then even Jesus doesn't meet the standard, so that is a whole other discussion.

Seriously? You don't see that Christ was affirming His deity when He said there is none good but God?

Not even Christians, who are made into 'good trees' are really 'good,' nor do do they produce 'good fruit,' if this is you application of the word 'good.' Are you sure you want to go with that definition?

And again, you don't understand one's union with Christ. Christ is good, we are evil. When we enter into union with Him, His goodness is ours, our sin is His, and He paid for it.

Learn what this passage means: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Could it be that Jesus was simply saying that nothing is good unless God says so?

Nope. Not at all.

Kind of like what I said a few posts back? God COUNTS something that is not worthy as worthy because He is gracious? Could that be what he is saying? hmmmm

Nope. Not at all.

 

[Aaron]

I thought you said nothing was good except God?

That's right. Basically leaves you with only one choice when speaking of men.

 

[Aaron]

It is not an either / or but a both / and.

Christ's death atoned for the universe as a whole, and unborn children and infants are part of that category.

Wow. I'm glad he's on your side, Scandal.

 

[Skandelon]

What is the alternative? If you believe we are born sinful, then you must believe babies and little children go to hell.

No, I believe God, in his mercy, can look over their sin (as he did for those in the OT who had yet to come to know of Christ, ref Rom 3; 2 Cor 5), and choose to apply Christ's atoning work as an act of Grace. In other words, there is only one way to heaven, through Christ and God's grace. Not through dying in your own "innocence."

 

[Skandelon]

Seriously? You don't see that Christ was affirming His deity when He said there is none good but God?

Right, and he did so in response to a man calling him 'good.' So, what have we learned? God determines what is good and what is NOT. And apparently trees and fruit, which are not themselves GOD, can still be called 'good,' yet you have refused to define what you think that means.

And again, you don't understand one's union with Christ. Christ is good, we are evil. When we enter into union with Him, His goodness is ours, our sin is His, and He paid for it.

What do you mean, "I don't understand???" This is the very point I've been attempting to argue!!! God makes what we do good through the substitute, Christ, who we are clothed in BY FAITH!!! You just assume one has to be clothed in Christ before having faith, but that is not what the text teaches.

 

[Skandelon]

Aaron, lets break your argument down in very simple terms, and don't try to dodge and confound this simple post:

1. Is it GOOD to believe God exists? Yes or No?
2. If no, explain why it is not good to believe that God exists.
3. If yes, then explain how demons (bad trees) do it?

 

[Yeshua1]

Oh, well, if that is the way you are using the word "good" then even Jesus doesn't meet the standard, so that is a whole other discussion. Not even Christians, who are made into 'good trees' are really 'good,' nor do do they produce 'good fruit,' if this is you application of the word 'good.' Are you sure you want to go with that definition?

Could it be that Jesus was simply saying that nothing is good unless God says so? Kind of like what I said a few posts back? God COUNTS something that is not worthy as worthy because He is gracious? Could that be what he is saying? hmmmm

Think jesus was asking the person WHY are you calling me a good teacher, for IF God only is good, are you calling me God now?

 

[webdog]

Wow. I'm glad he's on your side, Scandal.

At least I speak what I believe and not in immature riddles as to play both sides of the fence, Err'in.