We need more seeker friendly churches!

[JonShaff]

One of the goals of the church is to feed the sheep that are members of the body of the Church. Also, regarding church goals I explicitly said "I will not list them all..." as the first thing I replied to you, but evidently you ignored or are just willfully ignorant of my reading my reply. In other words, my reply was not meant to be an exhaustive list. Further I provided scripture to support all my assertions which you couldn't or wouldn't rebuttal, then you offer your post above that contains only your opinion with no scriptural support? I will not even bother wasting my time in rebutting such an unsupported post. Also, this is the second time in this thread you quoted my post, but both times you simply ask more questions and don't rebuttal any of my points you have quoted as can be seen by anyone reading your post # 19 and 34 on this thread. This is a debate forum, if you don't know care to debate my points, I am not engaging in such folly as responding further to your posts, "4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit" (Proverbs 26:4-5). Finally, I do not disagree with all of the goals of the church you have listed such as to glorify God, but I am afraid for some of your listed goals such as to, "To Grow in the Grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ...to endeavor to Know our Lord" you have mistaken the church's goals for the work of the that the Holy Spirit accomplishes sovereignly in a believer' life by having them, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12-13). One cannot of their own will "grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ" or "endeavor to Know our Lord" unless God wills to do it in that person. We are said to be branches in the vine which is Christ, does the branch support the vine or the vine the branches?

First of all, where is your spirit of Humility? Secondly, i can back up all of the "goals" i listed.

You answered me with (1) goal for a pastor/overseer, as Christ spoke to PETER, not to a congregation (Paul also commands the overseer to PREACH THE WORD). So even the one goal you listed doesn't truly answer the question, "What are the Goals of the Church."

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Colossians 1:10...That you might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work; and increasing in the knowledge of God

Philippians 3:8

Ephesians 1:17

We are to offer up Spiritual Sacrifices...

1 Peter 2:5 You also, as lively stones, are built up a Spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up Spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

And you quote Proverbs asserting a brother of yours in Christ is a fool? Quite the accusation. I asked a simple question or two.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

First of all, where is your spirit of Humility? Secondly, i can back up all of the "goals" i listed.

You answered me with (1) goal for a pastor/overseer, as Christ spoke to PETER, not to a congregation (Paul also commands the overseer to PREACH THE WORD). So even the one goal you listed doesn't truly answer the question, "What are the Goals of the Church."

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Colossians 1:10...That you might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work; and increasing in the knowledge of God

Philippians 3:8

Ephesians 1:17

We are to offer up Spiritual Sacrifices...

1 Peter 2:5 You also, as lively stones, are built up a Spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up Spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

And you quote Proverbs asserting a brother of yours in Christ is a fool? Quite the accusation. I asked a simple question or two.

I am sorry for calling you a fool brother. I was wrong for saying that. Please forgive me. You have a good night.

 

[JonShaff]

I am sorry for calling you a fool brother. I was wrong for saying that. Please forgive me. You have a good night.

I forgive you...Have a good evening. I think it would be a healthy thing to discuss the "Work/Goal of the Church" as it pertains to "Lost People", I.e. Sharing the Gospel. Hopefully we could continue....

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I forgive you...Have a good evening. I think it would be a healthy thing to discuss the "Work/Goal of the Church" as it pertains to "Lost People", I.e. Sharing the Gospel. Hopefully we could continue....

Brother Jon,

Thanks for forgiving me. I don't want the thread to turn into a Calvinism/Arminian type thread. I will just say I do not believe it is the goal of the church to save "lost people" , but rather Christ can and does sovereignly does this as His whole mission was,., "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." (Luke 19:10) and he is successful in every case, "and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21).

I do not believe the church can turn goats into sheep and that I am afraid is the real motive behind church's conforming their practices to being "seeker friendly" these days by having things such as plays, rock bands, etc. It is an attempt to appeal to the flesh of man to draw them into the church in order to "make" children of God of them. Often times, with soup kitchens, feeding the poor's fleshly appetite is only a secondary goal, the primary goal is to get these people "saved".

One believes the gospel because they already have the Holy Spirit in them not to Get the Holy Spirit in them as seen by Galatians telling us "faith" is a fruit of the Spirit. The tree comes before the fruit, therefore one must have the Spirit that produces the "fruit" of faith in the gospel before they can have faith in the gospel. We first have to be given "ears to hear", a new heart by having our "stony heart" removed, and given the "mind of Christ" before we can believe the gospel, "Because the carnal mind (the mind we are born inherited with from our father Adam) is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Romans 8:7). God, not man, does these things.

 

[JonShaff]

Brother Jon,

Thanks for forgiving me. I don't want the thread to turn into a Calvinism/Arminian type thread. I will just say I do not believe it is the goal of the church to save "lost people" , but rather Christ can and does sovereignly does this as His whole mission was,., "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." (Luke 19:10) and he is successful in every case, "and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21).

I do not believe the church can turn goats into sheep and that I am afraid is the real motive behind church's conforming their practices to being "seeker friendly" these days by having things such as plays, rock bands, etc. It is an attempt to appeal to the flesh of man to draw them into the church to "make" children of God. Often times, with soup kitchens, feeding the poor's fleshly appetite is only a secondary goal, the primary goal is to get these people "saved".

One believes the gospel because they already have the Holy Spirit in them not to Get the Holy Spirit in them as seen by Galatians telling us "faith" is a fruit of the Spirit. The tree comes before the fruit, therefore one must have the Spirit that produces the "fruit" of faith in the gospel before they can have faith in the gospel. We first have to be given "ears to hear", a new heart by having our "stony heart" removed, and given the "mind of Christ" before we can believe the gospel, "Because the carnal mind (the mind we are born inherited with from our father Adam) is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Romans 8:7). God, not man, does these things.

hmmm...after reading this, and i can assure you calvinism/arminian will not be debated, but this is an atrocity reflected in the errant teachings of Hyper-Calvinism...

The Bible is very clear (and should be applied to all believers)...

2 Corinthians 4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The Church Plays an active role in Sharing the Gospel.....all the time...by all/any means necessary.

The Explicit, Complete Gospel of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 3....

 

[BrotherJoseph]

hmmm...after reading this, and i can assure you calvinism/arminian will not be debated, but this is an atrocity reflected in the errant teachings of Hyper-Calvinism...

The Bible is very clear (and should be applied to all believers)...

2 Corinthians
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The Church Plays an active role in Sharing the Gospel.....all the time...by all/any means necessary.

The Explicit, Complete Gospel of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 3....

Many would label me a "hyper", of course it is a derogative term. I do believe the gospel is only for those who are already regenerated and not reprobates. Going back to an earlier question that you had regarding the soup kitchen and what it has to do with "casting your pearl before swine", I believe a soup kitchen can often naturally attract reprobates, thus producing false converts in so doing. When Jesus said, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you" , that is referring to giving the teachings of scripture to the reprobate. None of the New Testament epistles were written to reprobates, they were written to members of the body of Christ. Paul went into the synagogues to preach his messages, not to skid row (not that there aren't children of God on skid row). The gospel does not bring life and immortality according to scripture it only brings these things to light, "... our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:" (2 Timothy 1:10). Something that brings something "to light" such as a lamp in the room, by it's function doesn't produce those things that are in the room, it only shows to the individual things that were already in the room, likewise the gospel tells us how we got saved, it does not get us saved. I guess we will have to agree to disagree and you can label me as a "hyper", so be it.

Enjoyed the discussion, except when I lost it and called you a name.

Your brother in Christ,

Brother Joe

 

[Internet Theologian]

I will ask you the question I asked Sister Ann and never received and answer to,does operating a soup kitchen open to the public to all who desire to come in a busy side of town meet this verse's criteria, "3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly." (Matthew 6:3-4). It seems to me a public soup kitchen located say in the run down side of the city of Chicago by a church would more appropriately fit the following verse, "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." (Mathew 6:1) and perhaps also this verse, "But all their works they do for to be seen of men" (Mathew 23:5)

God bless,

Brother Joe

Brother with all due respect the passages you've given are dealing with ones motive in giving not necessarily the mode. God bless!

 

[JonShaff]

Many would label me a "hyper", of course it is a derogative term. I do believe the gospel is only for those who are already regenerated and not reprobates. Going back to an earlier question that you had regarding the soup kitchen and what it has to do with "casting your pearl before swine", I believe a soup kitchen can often naturally attract reprobates, thus producing false converts in so doing. When Jesus said, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you" , that is referring to giving the teachings of scripture to the reprobate. None of the New Testament epistles were written to reprobates, they were written to members of the body of Christ. Paul went into the synagogues to preach his messages, not to skid row (not that there aren't children of God on skid row). The gospel does not bring life and immortality according to scripture it only brings these things to light, "... our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:" (2 Timothy 1:10). Something that brings something "to light" such as a lamp in the room, by it's function doesn't produce those things that are in the room, it only shows to the individual things that were already in the room, likewise the gospel tells us how we got saved, it does not get us saved. I guess we will have to agree to disagree and you can label me as a "hyper", so be it.

Enjoyed the discussion, except when I lost it and called you a name.

Your brother in Christ,

Brother Joe

Couple things...My use of "hyper" wasn't meant to label you, but an errant teaching. So please don't be offended by that.

Secondly, Casting your pearls before the swine has nothing to do with sharing the gospel to reprobates. Look at the context...Jesus Just got done instructing those who want to pull the spec out of a brother's eye better pull the beam out of their own first. This is discussing the Moral/Holy Behavior of a believer. So, Jesus follows up with, "Don't try and moralize unbelievers....don't try to bring a law unto them who are not holy (made holy in Christ)." Paul talks of something similar when he says in 1 Corinthians 5, "I'm not talking about disassociating with unbelievers, i'm talking about removing from fellowship from BELIEVERS who are ungodly, willfully."

Thirdly, i'm shocked at your evaluation of the Power of the Gospel and soteriology.

Galatians 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Romans 10...Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God...

Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for it is the power of God Unto salvation to everyone that believes....

Us already having the Holy Spirit is wildly false...

Brother, i beseech you, Please review your understanding of the Gospel and Our position as fellow laborers WITH Christ....The World Needs more people to plant the Seeds of the Gospel, And more people like Philip to help people understand the Eternal implications of the Gospel.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother with all due respect the passages you've given are dealing with ones motive in giving not necessarily the mode. God bless!

Hi Brother IT,

I think in most instances the primary motive of a homeless shelter or soup kitchen from a church isn't to be "seen of men" (though only God knows the motives of the heart and this certainly may be a motive in some instances), but if I made an educated guess, I think it would go beyond this, I this it is their primary mission is to turn goats into sheep via the means of "gospel regeneration". For example, the largest homeless shelter in Chicago is probably Pacific Garden Mission by Moody church. Under their "purpose" section on their website they write it is to, " To reach the lost with the Gospel of Christ" http://www.moodychurch.org/fusion/volunteer/homeless-ministry/ . However, Paul tells us "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14). The gospel is certainly one of the "things of the Spirit of God" that is foolishness to the "natural" lost man. Those who receive the gospel already are saved as scripture declares, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish (this would be "the lost" they are trying to reach in the homeless shelter) foolishness; but unto us which are saved (PRESENT TENSE) it is the power of God". They are trying to play the role of the Holy Spirit and give life to people spiritually dead in sins.

Under statement of faith, Pacific Garden Mission writes, "We believe that all who receive by faith the Lord Jesus Christ are born again of the Holy Spirit and thereby become children of God." http://www.pgm.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=26&Itemid=152 This sounds a lot like "receiving Jesus" or "asking him into your heart" via the unbiblical "sinners prayer" if you ask me. By saying they are assisting in these homeless people "become children of God" is blasphemous as scripture tells us Jesus alone ".. by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14).

You may have heard there radio program that is supposed to be reaching the lost on Moody radio. Often times there is a narrative of someone who becomes saved at the end after they "accept Jesus", yet the only time the New Testament talks of "acceptance" it is Jesus, "wherein he hath (past tense) made us accepted in the beloved." (Ephesians 1:6). I am sorry, but it just makes me sick.

 

[JonShaff]

Acts 10:31, 44-45 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

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[Internet Theologian]

Hi Brother IT,

I think in most instances the primary motive of a homeless shelter or soup kitchen from a church isn't to be "seen of men" (though only God knows the motives of the heart and this certainly may be a motive in some instances), but if I made an educated guess, I think it would go beyond this, I this it is their primary mission is to turn goats into sheep via the means of "gospel regeneration". For example, the largest homeless shelter in Chicago is probably Pacific Garden Mission by Moody church. Under their "purpose" section on their website they write it is to, " To reach the lost with the Gospel of Christ" http://www.moodychurch.org/fusion/volunteer/homeless-ministry/ . However, Paul tells us "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14). The gospel is certainly one of the "things of the Spirit of God" that is foolishness to the "natural" lost man. Those who receive the gospel already are saved as scripture declares, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish (this would be "the lost" they are trying to reach in the homeless shelter) foolishness; but unto us which are saved (PRESENT TENSE) it is the power of God". They are trying to play the role of the Holy Spirit and give life to people spiritually dead in sins.

Under statement of faith, Pacific Garden Mission writes, "We believe that all who receive by faith the Lord Jesus Christ are born again of the Holy Spirit and thereby become children of God." http://www.pgm.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=26&Itemid=152 This sounds a lot like "receiving Jesus" or "asking him into your heart" via the unbiblical "sinners prayer" if you ask me. By saying they are assisting in these homeless people "become children of God" is blasphemous as scripture tells us Jesus alone ".. by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14).

You may have heard there radio program that is supposed to be reaching the lost on Moody radio. Often times there is a narrative of someone who becomes saved at the end after they "accept Jesus", yet the only time the New Testament talks of "acceptance" it is Jesus, "wherein he hath (past tense) made us accepted in the beloved." (Ephesians 1:6). I am sorry, but it just makes me sick.

Thats a long response brother! I'd be more concerned about my motives than others first and foremost. Also, some may have a babes understanding of the gospel and conversion however God can and still does save His elect within those means. None of us started at where we are now theologically and many on this board and elsewhere may have prayed to accept Jesus at someone's bidding but were converted in spite of that. Remember Apollos who needed redirected after preaching and was mighty in the Scriptures.

 

[JonShaff]

So what does it mean to receive Jesus?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Sounds like a choice to me.

Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:


John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

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[Internet Theologian]

So what does it mean to receive Jesus?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Sounds like a choice to me.

Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:




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I get what you're saying brother. I refer to John 1:13; Romans 9:16 'not by human decision'. Also note 1 Cor. 1:26-31; James 1:18. The receiving is not the clincher of salvation but the evidence.

 

[JonShaff]

I get what you're saying brother. I refer to John 1:13; Romans 9:16 'not by human decision'. Also note 1 Cor. 1:26-31; James 1:18. The receiving is not the clincher of salvation but the evidence.

I would argue Romans 9 has a corporate perspective, not so much indivudual.

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[Internet Theologian]

I would argue Romans 9 has a corporate perspective, not so much indivudual.

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No problem and I respect your opinion. That is not mine however. Salvation is still not determined by human decision whether corporately or individually. He chose us. That is proper soteriology. Decisional regeneration is a newcomer and is erroneous. Many start here though in their understanding.

 

[JonShaff]

I would def argue that John 1:13 and James 1:18 is a matter of causation. It is the byproduct of responding to Christ's Call. The Cause is Christ's finished work on the Cross and us being told to believe and the effect would be regeneration. Anything else would be putting the proverbial cart before the horse.

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[BrotherJoseph]

Acts 10:31, 44-45 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

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Hi Brother Jon,


This will be my last post as we have greatly deviated from the topic of this thread from seeker friendly churches into gospel regeneration. Regarding your example of Cornelius, Cornelius is actually a great example of a man who was born again BEFORE he ever heard the gospel, or even met Peter. First, notice that before he met Peter or heard the gospel, Cornelius "feared God with all his house" (Acts 10:2). From the Bible we know that people who fear God are saved as Peter said in Acts 10:35, “in every nation he that feareth him…is accepted with him”. It also says unsaved men do not fear God, “The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes” (Psalm 36:1)


Second, see that Cornelius' prayers were "come up for a memorial before God" (Acts 10:4), before he heard or believed the gospel through Peter. Proverbs 15:29 teaches plainly that God only hears the prayers of the righteous, “29 The Lord is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.” Can you give me a scripture showing that God hears the prayers of the unsaved?


Third, observe that Peter acknowledged in Acts 10:34-35 that God had already accepted Cornelius before Peter ever met him. It says, “Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”


Regeneration preceding faith is the example we are taught in 1 John 5:1, “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:” Notice It does not say “will be” or "becomes" born of God. This verse literally means in the Greek “whosoever beieveth…has been (past tense) born of God” (See ESV version of this verse. It renders it this way).

Finally, consider this, scripture tells us Christ “wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;”, however we know the gospel as preached by man did not reach every nation, tribe, and people throughout history. History teaches us tribes died off before the gospel preacher was ever able to get there.

If gospel regeneration is true, then you need to either damn all mentally handicap and infants dying in infancy from such things as abortion etc. as such are not able to understand and comprehend the gospel preacher or devise a separate method for such people to receive the Spirit, but Jesus teaches us all people are born again in the same manner, “The windbloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit” (John 3:8). How can being born again be compared to being like the wind by Jesus in that you coult tell from "whence" it comes and goes if gospel regeneration is the truth as one could then pinpoint their regeneration to the exact time they first heard and believed the gospel?

I will not be discussion gospel regeneration anymore on this thread. I enjoyed the discussion with you. If another poster wishes to defend regeneration without means so be it. This thread has deviated from the topic.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Internet Theologian]

I would def argue that John 1:13 and James 1:18 is a matter of causation. It is the byproduct of responding to Christ's Call. The Cause is Christ's finished work on the Cross and us being told to believe and the effect would be regeneration. Anything else would be putting the proverbial cart before the horse.

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I'm sure you're convinced of that but believe you're amiss. Faith is evidence not the cause brother. You're making it the cause. Faith is the gift of God. Respectfully brother you are in all actuality in the stead of putting the cart first.

 

[JonShaff]

I'm sure you're convinced of that but believe you're amiss. Faith is evidence not the cause brother. You're making it the cause. Faith is the gift of God. Respectfully brother you are in all actuality in the stead of putting the cart first.

Brother, I know and understand all of the Calvinist talking points...faith (as a gift) is a fruit of the Spirit in Which someone receives AFTER regeneration.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


We are brothers in Christ, and this should not hinder our fellowship.

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[JonShaff]

Salvation is the gift

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