We need more seeker friendly churches!

[BrotherJoseph]

Thats a long response brother! I'd be more concerned about my motives than others first and foremost. Also, some may have a babes understanding of the gospel and conversion however God can and still does save His elect within those means. None of us started at where we are now theologically and many on this board and elsewhere may have prayed to accept Jesus at someone's bidding but were converted in spite of that. Remember Apollos who needed redirected after preaching and was mighty in the Scriptures.

You are very right about motives. I don't trust myself due to my wicked flesh!

I agree, I too started off as a free will, universal atonement, gospel regenerationist myself brother! I do not believe by any means if one believes in gospel regeneration it means they are unsaved. The Corinthians and those at the church of Galatia were adhering to all sorts of deviated doctrines. Actually, it is funny, believing in gospel regeneration is how all the members at my church intially believed before learning the truth more perfectly like Apollos . As a matter of fact, the Elder of my church use to be a Methodist preacher. By nature we are all born with Arminian leanings. My parents believe in gospel regeneration, but I don't think they are "unsaved" by any means. I also think we are always learning and start off with milk. I doubt anyone is born believing in regeneration preceding faith, accept maybe John the Baptist who had the Holy Ghost from the womb (that alone disproves "gospel regeneration").

I have long posts because I travel for my job Internet Theologian, thus I have the time being alone in a hotel all night LOL!

 

[JonShaff]

Regardless, Preaching/Sharing/Proclaiming/declaring the Gospel of Jesus Christ is absolutely necessary.

And this Calvinist "Elitist" attitude is unbecoming. I believe the Bible. I'm neither Calvinist or arminian. I'm Christian, saved, born again Child of God.

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[steaver]

Yes I would feed him! My disagreement on this thread was with those who believe having a church soup kitchen has a Biblical precedent. Also, we are to have a special love toward our brothers in Christ who are members of His body. We have communion and a fellowship with such that cannot be shared with the unregenerate. Jesus is clear however, we are too love all men, including are enemies and we will if we are truly one of His.

But the reason you gave for rejecting soup kitchens is because it is "man-made". This is silly. You are placing restrictions on how the Holy Spirit moves individuals to implement "love thy neighbor". Soup kitchens would absolutely fall under loving thy neighbor. As would having clothing banks and shelters. Quench not the Spirit my brother! Blessings!

 

[Internet Theologian]

Salvation is the gift

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Actually faith is the gift as is salvation. This faith is not inherent/innate.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Brother, I know and understand all of the Calvinist talking points...faith (as a gift) is a fruit of the Spirit in Which someone receives AFTER regeneration.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


We are brothers in Christ, and this should not hinder our fellowship.

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Brother, this won't hinder any fellowship or dialog. It is noted what you've stated, and respectfully this seems to come across as if you've undone reformed theology in a few sentences. Neither passage you've quoted proves faith as a gift, and/or that it is an after salvation gift, albeit wonderful truths are therein!

 

[Internet Theologian]

You are very right about motives. I don't trust myself due to my wicked flesh!

I agree, I too started off as a free will, universal atonement, gospel regenerationist myself brother! I do not believe by any means if one believes in gospel regeneration it means they are unsaved. The Corinthians and those at the church of Galatia were adhering to all sorts of deviated doctrines. Actually, it is funny, believing in gospel regeneration is how all the members at my church intially believed before learning the truth more perfectly like Apollos . As a matter of fact, the Elder of my church use to be a Methodist preacher. By nature we are all born with Arminian leanings. My parents believe in gospel regeneration, but I don't think they are "unsaved" by any means. I also think we are always learning and start off with milk. I doubt anyone is born believing in regeneration preceding faith, accept maybe John the Baptist who had the Holy Ghost from the womb (that alone disproves "gospel regeneration").

I have long posts because I travel for my job Internet Theologian, thus I have the time being alone in a hotel all night LOL!

No problem about the length. Thanks for the kind response. I believe we forget where we've come from doctrinally as at times we seem to berate others as if we've always understood these truths. I know of several who used to be arminian or anti-doctrines of grace but now have come to acknowledge the truth. It is amazing how much clearer the Scriptures are then seen.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Regardless, Preaching/Sharing/Proclaiming/declaring the Gospel of Jesus Christ is absolutely necessary.

And this Calvinist "Elitist" attitude is unbecoming. I believe the Bible. I'm neither Calvinist or arminian. I'm Christian, saved, born again Child of God.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

I'm not sure where this is coming from brother, this accusation of elitist? With all due respect brother it is both an unnecessary attitude (to come across elitist) and accusation on your part. I've not seen it in this thread and hoping we can keep it brotherly and above the belt. Not sure to whom this is directed though and if I've stepped over my bounds in response my apologies.

 

[annsni]

Those who receive the gospel already are saved

If they are already saved, we have no need to obey Jesus to go into all the world preaching the Gospel.

 

[JonShaff]

I'm not sure where this is coming from brother, this accusation of elitist? With all due respect brother it is both an unnecessary attitude (to come across elitist) and accusation on your part. I've not seen it in this thread and hoping we can keep it brotherly and above the belt. Not sure to whom this is directed though and if I've stepped over my bounds in response my apologies.

It is the attitude and tone within the response. Although i understand we have limited capacity to invoke tone in a written response, the words and attitude comes off as elitist..."I use to believe that, too, but now..." "Most calvanist use to believe that lie too, but now we have greater understanding..." "When we were on the milk, but now we have better understanding..." "My whole church thought that way, until they finally arrived...." "Now that i'm much more mature..." Your belief system has caused malpractice. I've been on this forum for about a week and i've seen the most arrogant, backhanded, unchristlike, unloving statements i've ever read on an open forum for Christians. I've seen secular sites act like this, but not Christian.

My first dialog i had on here, i was called a fool.

 

[Internet Theologian]

It is the attitude and tone within the response. Although i understand we have limited capacity to invoke tone in a written response, the words and attitude comes off as elitist..."I use to believe that, too, but now..." "Most calvanist use to believe that lie too, but now we have greater understanding..." "When we were on the milk, but now we have better understanding..." "My whole church thought that way, until they finally arrived...." "Now that i'm much more mature..." Your belief system has caused malpractice. I've been on this forum for about a week and i've seen the most arrogant, backhanded, unchristlike, unloving statements i've ever read on an open forum for Christians. I've seen secular sites act like this, but not Christian.

My first dialog i had on here, i was called a fool.

Brother, stating the tone as the reason is purely subjective. Could it be that your heart towards these brothers causes you to feel and show your contempt and you read this into what is said? From the heart come these things, this name calling, accusing. I've not seen this in the tone on here myself from the calvinists of late. If one states since they've matured, or they've come to believe this, or I was on the milk of the Word I don't see that as wrong in attitude. In fact, there are those who are the more learned, the greater example, more knowledgeable, more mature, of the meat, and yes 'holier than thou' in a positive sense, not in the mocking negative sense.

Brother you're taking liberty and condemning by reading something that is not there into what is being said. Also, since you're an honest man, I'd like for you to share where this attitude has taken place all over this forum from calvinists. While you're at it have you seen this from the anti-cals as well???

Another thing brother, you act like this is only here but have been on other forums and imply it doesn't exist. I'm not buying that one brother! Methinks you're just anti-calvinist my friend, and I have no problem with that, so be it!

 

[JonShaff]

Brother, stating the tone as the reason is purely subjective. Could it be that your heart towards these brothers causes you to feel and show your contempt and you read this into what is said? From the heart come these things, this name calling, accusing. I've not seen this in the tone on here myself from the calvinists of late. If one states since they've matured, or they've come to believe this, or I was on the milk of the Word I don't see that as wrong in attitude. In fact, there are those who are the more learned, the greater example, more knowledgeable, more mature, of the meat, and yes 'holier than thou' in a positive sense, not in the mocking negative sense.

Brother you're taking liberty and condemning by reading something that is not there into what is being said. Also, since you're an honest man, I'd like for you to share where this attitude has taken place all over this forum from calvinists. While you're at it have you seen this from the anti-cals as well???

Another thing brother, you act like this is only here but have been on other forums and imply it doesn't exist. I'm not buying that one brother! Methinks you're just anti-calvinist my friend, and I have no problem with that, so be it!

Like I said, i wouldn't want this conversation to cause any animosity, i value my fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ higher than "Being right."

I believe there is a notable difference in reality when someone says "They've matured in Christ" and "They've matured in their understanding." The Former is noble, the latter is POTENTIALLY smug. When i was first saved, i was told you could lose your salvation. As i read the scriptures for myself, i realized (The Holy Spirit enlightened me) that it is totally untrue. So we can see that GROWING in my understanding, as the Holy Spirit wills, can be a noble thing as well. And yes, both Maturing in Christ and Growing in Understanding has a Human responsibility as well as A Divine occurrence (Edit...It is continually occurring)...We see Peter admonish Believers to "Desire the sincere milk of the Word that you may GROW thereby...if so that you have tasted the Lord is gracious..."

Lastly, we have already seen a major atrocity to believing the extremes of what Calvin (or his disciples) has taught.....Belief Invokes (also provokes) ACTION...

For anyone to say that we shouldn't be sharing the Gospel or Proclaiming the Gospel to a Lost world is hugely errant. You are cutting out and ignoring many Scriptures in order for that to be a reality. Also, Receiving the Holy Spirit before belief? One would have to twist many Scriptures in order to arrive at that conclusion.

I have no ill feelings to my reformed brothers and sisters, but i believe pointing out the Practical flaws in it is highly necessary and my duty as a Christian.

Brother, Let us take a moment to pause and reflect or repent for the things we discussed or said. I myself am doing that right now, boldly coming to the Throne of Grace, to obtain Grace and Mercy in the time of need (always). I apologize for anything that was unfair or hurtful. Once again, i value Christian Fellowship and Honoring Our Lord more than i do being right. Have a blessed day, brother!

 

[Internet Theologian]

No problem brother Jon! I think if we treat each other with grace and try not to label and then apply contempt to words we will be Scriptural and like Christ!

By the way, the growth is Scriptural, grace firstly then knowledge; 2 Peter 3:18, and this growth is answer to Paul's prayer for believers for their eyes to open and be enlightened which are ready to receive the things of God; Ephesians 1:15-23, so all is Soli Deo gloria!

Don't forget some of us 'Calvinists' are fully evangelistic!

 

[BrotherJoseph]

If they are already saved, we have no need to obey Jesus to go into all the world preaching the Gospel.

Hi Sister Ann,

"Though the Spirit produces life without the means of the preached word, it is the gospel which brings this life and immortality to light (Rom 1:16-17, 2Tim 1:9-10).

The gospel establishes believers in truth, convicts them of their sins, and leads them to repentance (Ps 119:9-11, Acts 17:30-31, Col 1:3-6, 2Tim 3:16-17) that God may be glorified, both by their profession and works (Mt 5:16, Acts 13:48, Rom 15:8-9, 1Cor 6:20, Philip 2:9-11, 2Thes 1:12, 2Thes 3:1).
The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth (Rom 1:16, 1Cor 1:18, 1Cor 1:23-24), in that it delivers those quickened by the Spirit from the darkness of Satan unto the light of Christ (Jn 8:12, Jn 12:46, Acts 13:47, 1Jn 1:5), and leads them to the intelligible discovery of their Savior (1Cor 14:24-25), and transforms them toward the example of His life (2Cor 3:18, Philip 2:5-11, 1Jn 2:6), all of which will be brought to perfection at His glorious appearing (1Cor 15:51-57, Philip 3:20-21, 1Jn 3:2).
All other forms of knowledge are inferior to the gospel (Philip 3:8-11), and without the gospel there can be no true worship (Jn 4:24, Jn 5:22-23). " (From Primitive Baptist Doctrinal Abstract)


Regarding the gospel, Elder Jim Poole writes,"does this not somehow bring a little light of hope to your dark path of gloom and dread, especially as you face the reality of death and the world of the unknown? Yes, there is good news contained herein. When blessed to have some little understanding of the Word of God it can be seen that the everlasting love of God to His elect provided a way of salvation. The gospel brings this heavenly intelligence to our souls. We find a measure of elation."http://www.asweetsavor.info/ejp/gospel1.php

Sister Ann, if someone had saved my physical life though I was undeserving by sacrificing their own, I would want to know who it was that did it and how he did it, wouldn't you? I would want to know this so I can thank that person, appreciate that person, etc, so how much more would a child of God want to know if one saved them undeservingly from eternal Hell through His sacrifice on the cross and divine quickening so when that person learns of this he can glorify, love, praise, and obey Him?


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[JonShaff]

Acts 2
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it....

.....

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

I really don't think this passage needs much commentary...responding to the Call of God is not some sort of, "Let's reverse engineer our salvation and find out how God saved us."

There is CLEARLY a personal response to the GOSPEL CALL....

The Gospel Isn't Merely a study of how one Got Saved, It is the MEssage of JEsus Christ from Genesis to Revelation, and it is to BE BELIEVED.

 

[Revmitchell]

We need an Amen! Rating

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Acts 2
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it....

.....

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

I really don't think this passage needs much commentary...responding to the Call of God is not some sort of, "Let's reverse engineer our salvation and find out how God saved us."

There is CLEARLY a personal response to the GOSPEL CALL....

The Gospel Isn't Merely a study of how one Got Saved, It is the MEssage of JEsus Christ from Genesis to Revelation, and it is to BE BELIEVED.

Hi Brother Jon,

All children of God will respond in faith and repentance in the gospel.

Those who are not sheep such as the Pharisees cannot hear and believe the gospel because they only have the flesh. Why did Jesus say, "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word" (John 8:43) What comes first the hearing or the ears that do the hearing?

Why did you repent and believe the gospel while perhaps others you know who inherited the same nature as you from Adam did not? Identical causes on identical things produce identical effects. The only logical explanation I have why some repent and believe the gospel while others do not despite the fact that all we know inherit an identical nature from Adam is because one person already has in them a new heart while the other does not, what is your explanation?

 

[JonShaff]

Hi Brother Jon,

All children of God will respond in faith and repentance in the gospel.

Those who are not sheep such as the Pharisees cannot hear and believe the gospel because they only have the flesh. Why did Jesus say, "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word" (John 8:43) What comes first the hearing or the ears that do the hearing?

Why did you repent and believe the gospel while perhaps others you know who inherited the same nature as you from Adam did not? Identical causes on identical things produce identical effects. The only logical explanation I have why some repent and believe the gospel while others do not despite the fact that all we know inherit an identical nature from Adam is because one person in them already has a new heart, what is your explanation?

Brother Joe, we can impose human logic and reason into the "why's" and "How's", but I'm certain Scripture gives plenty of evidence to most of our questions...Does Christ "Give Light" to all men (and women) that enter into the world? Does God know all who will come to His calling (Does He know His sheep)? Does God regenerate in a certain order?

Titus 3

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

 

[JonShaff]

Why is this even in the Bible if this isn't applicable to Salvation or our Labor with Christ?

Romans 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Does God regenerate in a certain order?

Titus 3

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Brother Jon,

I do not disagree with what you have highlighted in Titus 3:8, "that they which have believed should be careful to maintain good works". In regards to your question to me if God regenerates in a certain order, regeneration is instantaneous and must precede faith in the gospel just as life always precedes action. Regeneration in scripture is compared to a new birth, a resurrection, a creation, and an adoption. What do all these things have in common? Nobody, but the parents play the role in the birth. You cannot "will" your own birth. As a matter of fact you can't do anything until you are first born. The second comparison is regeneration to a resurrection. Did Lazarus will or play a role in His resurrection or was it all of God? Could he do anything until Jesus called him forward? Next, a creation, did Adam play any kind of role in his creation or did God do it on His own without the means of man? Finally, an adoption, does the newborn being adopted choose the parents or do the parents select the child they are going to adopt?

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[JonShaff]

Brother Jon,

I do not disagree with what you have highlighted in Titus 3:8, "that they which have believed should be careful to maintain good works". In regards to your question to me if God regenerates in a certain order, regeneration is instantaneous and must precede faith in the gospel just as life always precedes action. Regeneration in scripture is compared to a new birth, a resurrection, a creation, and an adoption. What do all these things have in common? Nobody, but the parents play the role in the birth. You cannot "will" your own birth. As a matter of fact you can't do anything until you are first born. The second comparison is regeneration to a resurrection. Did Lazarus will or play a role in His resurrection or was it all of God? Could he do anything until Jesus called him forward? Next, a creation, did Adam play any kind of role in his creation or did God do it on His own without the means of man? Finally, an adoption, does the newborn being adopted choose the parents or do the parents select the child they are going to adopt?

God bless,

Brother Joe

Interesting thoughts, I will reply later this evening.....