Wealthy Pastors

[MorganT]

To be honest I never have thought about pay in other places as I have lived here my whole life so this is interesting to even know that there are that much diffence in cost of living in our great country.

 

[preachinjesus]

I've had this conversation before at other places (primarily seminary.) My position is that we have no grounds to question a man of God as to his compensation if we are outside his parsonage. It does nothing to edify the Kingdom of God to indulge in pointless conjecture about issues which we have no righteous reason to consider.

If you have a problem with your pastor's salary than go ask him about it and talk with him about it. If you have a problem with a man who is not your pastor and the salary he, supposedly, makes than get over it and don't go to that church. We have no place to question a pastor outside of our particular church...that's Baptist polity.

Some pastors who serve in larger churches do make more significant salaries than others. There are some lawyers who serve in larger firms that make more significant salaries than others. There are some business people who serve in larger settings that make more significant salaries than others. Just because someone is a pastor does not make them more open to questioning or pointless conjecture about the "morality" of their salary.

For full disclosures sake: I have known and served with pastors who have made above this "immoral" (+$100,000/year) and quite frankly will not ever question them for it. It is not my place, I serve with them and under them. They have tremendously impacting ministries.

Perhaps we shouldn't classify numbers and salary with success in church. What if we finally were able to move beyond the secular criteria for success (numbers and bottomline) and think about the Kingdom impact.

Also, remember to whom much is given much is required. Having served with said pastors, there are few of us who could ever grasp handling the ministry they deal with on a daily basis.

 

[gb93433]

OK folks if you would look at the heading Wealthy Pastors you will notice that I was not speaking of your everyday Pastor I was only referring to the Wealthy ones which yes are few and far between and I asked what you thought of them.

So here it is Pastors that make a rediculous salary way out of proportion what do you think of those Pastors. The ones that claim to be Gods man but I would have to think twice about that.

Perhaps that says something about the generosity of the people who go to church there and something else about congregations who are selfish pigs and cannot keep a pastor very long because they will not care for him.

How would you feel if I said that anyone who over eats ought to be disciplined because if they were not over eating they could give more to help with ministry? That would amount to approximately 60 percent of the congregation and several thousand dollars per family due to the price of food and additional health care costs.

Then there are men who do not take a salary from the church they pastor. Does that mean anyone who is paid is being paid too much?

 

[MorganT]

I've had this conversation before at other places (primarily seminary.) My position is that we have no grounds to question a man of God as to his compensation if we are outside his parsonage. It does nothing to edify the Kingdom of God to indulge in pointless conjecture about issues which we have no righteous reason to consider.

If you have a problem with your pastor's salary than go ask him about it and talk with him about it. If you have a problem with a man who is not your pastor and the salary he, supposedly, makes than get over it and don't go to that church. We have no place to question a pastor outside of our particular church...that's Baptist polity.

Some pastors who serve in larger churches do make more significant salaries than others. There are some lawyers who serve in larger firms that make more significant salaries than others. There are some business people who serve in larger settings that make more significant salaries than others. Just because someone is a pastor does not make them more open to questioning or pointless conjecture about the "morality" of their salary.

For full disclosures sake: I have known and served with pastors who have made above this "immoral" (+$100,000/year) and quite frankly will not ever question them for it. It is not my place, I serve with them and under them. They have tremendously impacting ministries.

Perhaps we shouldn't classify numbers and salary with success in church. What if we finally were able to move beyond the secular criteria for success (numbers and bottomline) and think about the Kingdom impact.

Also, remember to whom much is given much is required. Having served with said pastors, there are few of us who could ever grasp handling the ministry they deal with on a daily basis.

You are absolutly wrong that I dont have the right to question a pastor. It may be the SBC way but its not Gods way look at what the bible says.

1Ti 3:1-7 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. (2) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach; (3) Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; (4) One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (5) (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) (6) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. (7) Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Its my duty to question any pastor to make sure he is in check for what God said he was suppose to do. A pastor must be blameless (what does it say) blameless. It says he is suppose to be sober and not given to wine. Let me see a pastor drinking and watch how fast I will call him out. Not greedy of filthy lucre (hmmm) what does it say, not covetous (what does it say) not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into condemnation of the devil (you see a pastor can fall into condemnation of the devil so therefore he can fall away from God and its my duty to make sure he is in check. Now look moreover he must have a good report of them which are without (hmmmmm) its getting deep now isnt it, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. Dont tell me I cannot question the man I never question God but you bet your life I will question the man (you or any other pastor)

 

[MorganT]

2Jo 1:9-11 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (10) If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed: (11) For he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

[gb93433]

Bro Tony $100,000.00 or a million makes no diffence to a man that makes less than $30,000.00 a yr I see it as the same he is wealthy in my eyes you however may be a wealthy man and not see that kind of money as much.

It is hard for me to understand why any pastor who is truly interested in evangelism would want to go to any southern state where there are Baptist churches on every street corner. It is a fact that the least number of pastors and missionaries go where they are needed the most.

 

[gb93433]

You are absolutly wrong that I dont have the right to question a pastor. It may be the SBC way but its not Gods way look at what the bible says.

If you understood the history of the church and the context of the verses you quoted you would understand that you have no right to question the pastor unless you are one of the leaders he is accountable to. That is the job of the leaders of the church. The early church did have a cultual hierarchy in place.

You forgot the verse which states, "Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses."

Do you ever question a glutton who is a member in your church?

 

[MorganT]

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

What does the bible tell us in 1 John believe not every spirit, but try the spirits
I have every God given right to question a pastor

 

[gb93433]

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

What does the bible tell us in 1 John believe not every spirit, but try the spirits
I have every God given right to question a pastor

Does your pastor have every God given right to see your tax forms after they are filled out at the end of the year?

 

[greek geek]

Along the lines of wealthy pastors I have a story for you. I was a member of a church in a state out west. It was a small church that met in a school. While I was there they hired a new preacher, from a different state out west. This guy agreed to come as a part-time bi-vocational pastor with the understanding that as soon as the church could afford it they would make him full time. He came. Instead of looking for a job in the city where the church was - he continued working at the place he had been working at - in another state, and fly in for the weekends. I knew this guy - he was too worried about money to completley leave his past and fully become a part of the city that he was supposed to be ministering in.

But what bugs the most about this guy is that he moved his family to the city where the church was, while he still lived in the other state, and bought a house. The neighborhood the church was in was middle-class. Very decent area of town, that had houses for sale. But instead this pastor bought a house 40 minutes away in a brand new, just built, very expensive house.

In a situation like that - I see a problem. This pastor may not have been wealthy but it was obviously where his heart was. (Remember - I knew this guy.) He was more concerned with having the best than most anything else. He separated his family for his financial benefit, and separated himself and his family from the area that he was supposed to minister to for the sake of a very nice well to do house.

The problem with "wealthy" pastors/ministers is no different than with "wealthy" laymen - - it's a problem of where the heart is. Why do we feel like we must have the best of everything. We must have a new car, a brand new house, expensive clothes. Why? There is a pervasive since of entitlement that spreads all throughout Christianity in America - and it isn't just with some pastors - I see it among the pew sitters. Christians are not entitled to anything but salvation (and that only by grace) and suffering. No promise of brand new houses. No promises of houses. No promises of new cars. No promises of functioning used cars. I often wonder what Bible we are reading...

 

[MorganT]

If you understood the history of the church and the context of the verses you quoted you would understand that you have no right to question the pastor unless you are one of the leaders he is accountable to. That is the job of the leaders of the church. The early church did have a cultual hierarchy in place.

You forgot the verse which states, "Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses."

Do you ever question a glutton who is a member in your church?

I dont think I have questioned anyone except a man that boast about being rich. I do have the right at my church because I am one of the leaders he is accountable to however I have never had to because we have a very faithful pastor that I love with all my heart.
The answer to your question about a glutton its not my place to judge someone just because of there size you never know they may have a heart condition that makes them appear to be a glutton when in fact they might have a severe heart conditon.

 

[El_Guero]

OK I gotta little bit of a laugh outta this one: On a Baptist Board in the Baptist section . . . Wouldn't you expect most of us to be Baptist?

OK folks if you would look at the heading Wealthy Pastors you will notice that I was not speaking of your everyday Pastor I was only referring to the Wealthy ones which yes are few and far between and I asked what you thought of them. I am from Memphis TN were a nomal house of 1500 sq ft would cost from $50,000.00 to at best $175,000.00. If a pastor were to making enough to pay cash after one year for a new house then he is over paid dont you think.

How about Pastor Fred Price http://www.letusreason.org/Wf27.htmif I remember correctly he drives a Rolls Royce and lives in a $1,000,000.00 home I am speaking of people like this. I know he is not Baptist but the question was not about Baptist Pastors it was about Wealthy Pastors in general I should have remembered to spell everything out plainly as I should have known there would be people judging me for asking about Pastors. So here it is Pastors that make a rediculous salary way out of proportion what do you think of those Pastors. The ones that claim to be Gods man but I would have to think twice about that.

 

[greek geek]

As for MorganT's statement that he has a right to question this of his pastor - he is right. We must be careful to not let Baptist polity trump scripture. Scripture clearly states that church leaders are to be above reproach. How are we to know they are above reproach if we are not allowed to question it?

Also look at Paul - he was questioned, rather accused, by others because they thought his going to gentiles with the gospel was wrong. He went with them to the apostles in Jerusalem and the matter was questioned and resolved. (Acts 15)

There is model in the new testament for making sure that leaders are above reproach. This is not to say that you stand up on Sunday morning and start flinging accusations - but you are entitled to question something if you truly believe that there is a problem with the leadership. Above all you need to do it with love and respect.

 

[MorganT]

As for MorganT's statement that he has a right to question this of his pastor - he is right. We must be careful to not let Baptist polity trump scripture. Scripture clearly states that church leaders are to be above reproach. How are we to know they are above reproach if we are not allowed to question it?

Also look at Paul - he was questioned, rather accused, by others because they thought his going to gentiles with the gospel was wrong. He went with them to the apostles in Jerusalem and the matter was questioned and resolved. (Acts 15)

There is model in the new testament for making sure that leaders are above reproach. This is not to say that you stand up on Sunday morning and start flinging accusations - but you are entitled to question something if you truly believe that there is a problem with the leadership. Above all you need to do it with love and respect.

And after much prayer consulting with God to lead you. These folks have blown this way out of proportion from what I was asking.

 

[MorganT]

OK I gotta little bit of a laugh outta this one: On a Baptist Board in the Baptist section . . . Wouldn't you expect most of us to be Baptist?

OK you obviouly can see by how many post that I have made that Im new to the board so forgive me if I dont know exactly were to post a post at. Im sure all of you are perfect people and never made a little mistake by putting something in the wrong place. Forgive me.

 

[El_Guero]

Now to the OP:

IMHO Wellllllll, if the IRS reports that 1/8 households make over 100k . . . then, I would expect that 1/8 people in our churches would not be offended at paying their pastors close, to or above, 100k.

Humbly from a poor pastor that has turned down 100k, 105k, 110k, & even 150k . . .

What was I thinking!?!?

If you want my opinion - money is not what counts. But, if a man's heart is in the right place, and God will provide that man enough worldly goods to influence and reach the wealthy for Jesus - than would that 100k/year help fulfill the statement, use filthy lucre to make friends?

 

[MorganT]

Yes Bro Tony I do understand what you are saying and its the hireling type of pastor that I am asking about what do people think of them not of a true man of God.

If you go back to post 17 you will notice that we have established that we are talking about a hireling type of pastor and not a normal God called Pastor. A man that is preaching strictly for the money or for a better word a TV personality type of Pastor that lives in multi million dollar houses and has personal jets, drives rolls royces and boast about having it all in Gods name.

 

[El_Guero]

Forgive you? Now doesn't that belong under the other thread?



And now that you admit my perfection, it would be truly difficult to forgive you on the wrong thread . . .

bless you brother

Wayne

OK you obviouly can see by how many post that I have made that Im new to the board so forgive me if I dont know exactly were to post a post at. Im sure all of you are perfect people and never made a little mistake by putting something in the wrong place. Forgive me.

 

[MorganT]

Forgive you? Now doesn't that belong under the other thread?



And now that you admit my perfection, it would be truly difficult to forgive you on the wrong thread . . .

bless you brother

Wayne

OK I am so much better now that we all know that you are perfect.:thumbs:

 

[gb93433]

The answer to your question about a glutton its not my place to judge someone just because of there size you never know they may have a heart condition that makes them appear to be a glutton when in fact they might have a severe heart conditon.

Gluttony is excessive eating and drinking.

According to the Bible gluttony is sin. There is only one way to get there. Being in that condition is an American excuse. Starving people cannot be a glutton.