Wealthy Pastors

[Jack Matthews]

I think there are pastors who are overpaid. On the other hand, the vast majority are underpaid, considering their professional status, the education required by most churches for them to do their job, and other expectations. Some churches take issue with the pastor's wife working, and if she does, it makes his job more difficult because people who complain about stuff like that continue to nag and whine and cause trouble until they force him to live the way they think he should.

In a lot of cases, I think it is a control issue. Church people, who are for the most part ordinary, everyday, run of the mill folks, can be important leaders in the church. As such, they have control over the pastor and church staff, especially if they have some role in church personnel or the finance committee, etc. They are nobody at work, and they have to take orders from someone else, but at church, they are the big fish in a small pond. They can make life miserable for a pastor.

I wonder if the person who started this thread would object to the salaries made by pastors of some of the big Baptist megachurches? After all, these men have sound doctrinal positions, and they are admired and adored and loved by millions of people. A lot of the pastors of some of the big fundamentalist Independent Baptist churches, like Falwell or Jack Hyles or the pastors at the churches at Tennessee Temple or Bob Jones or Pensacola Christian, hide their salaries in the budget so the congregation doesn't know what they make, and then ride around in Lincolns and Caddies or in chauffered vehicles. Any criticism here of that?

When our pastor first came to the field, to a brand new congregation of 120 people, mostly under 40, meeting in a school, we offered him a "full time" salary of $28,000 annually, plus paid health insurance for he and his wife. He is an amateur photographer and asked if he could have time to develop a photography business, which we agreed to, and his wife is a teacher. At every opportunity, as the church has grown and prospered, we have raised his salary accordingly. He still owns his photography business, though someone else manages it for him, but we pay quite a bit more than he originally made, and it will continue to be increased as long as the church continues to grown and prosper. When he makes as much as a lawyer, which is a profession that I consider equal to the hours he puts in, the training he has to have, and the stress he must endure, then we might consider that he makes enough. Until then, it keeps going up.

 

[annsni]

Here's an interesting article that was linked on another board I go on. I thought it appropriate to put here in this discussion.

http://www.shepherdserve.org/e_teachings/2006_06.htm

 

[mima]

The title of this post,"Wealthy Pastors" caught my eye because of what happened to me yesterday while I was out witnessing. When I approached two middle-aged ladies, and asked them the defining question one of them immediately begin to take offense at my question. When I ask why she begin to tell me about a pastors home in our city which costs $425,000. I might say here that the average income in our city is between 32 and $38,000. The reason this woman knew the cost of the home is because her husband is a sheet wall finisher. Now I knew the particular pastor she was speaking, about of course she did not mention his name nor did I. And incidentally he has been on TBN before. And while I don't know his exact salary at this time, four years ago it was over $100,000.
And so my reason for bringing this up is to stay the following, outrageous living by some pastors gives the lost world much to talk about. If you're wondering, the lady and I went on to discuss her beliefs and then she invited me to lead her in a prayer for assurance.

 

[Brice]

I think there are pastors who are overpaid. On the other hand, the vast majority are underpaid, considering their professional status, the education required by most churches for them to do their job, and other expectations. Some churches take issue with the pastor's wife working, and if she does, it makes his job more difficult because people who complain about stuff like that continue to nag and whine and cause trouble until they force him to live the way they think he should.

In a lot of cases, I think it is a control issue. Church people, who are for the most part ordinary, everyday, run of the mill folks, can be important leaders in the church. As such, they have control over the pastor and church staff, especially if they have some role in church personnel or the finance committee, etc. They are nobody at work, and they have to take orders from someone else, but at church, they are the big fish in a small pond. They can make life miserable for a pastor.

I wonder if the person who started this thread would object to the salaries made by pastors of some of the big Baptist megachurches? After all, these men have sound doctrinal positions, and they are admired and adored and loved by millions of people. A lot of the pastors of some of the big fundamentalist Independent Baptist churches, like Falwell or Jack Hyles or the pastors at the churches at Tennessee Temple or Bob Jones or Pensacola Christian, hide their salaries in the budget so the congregation doesn't know what they make, and then ride around in Lincolns and Caddies or in chauffered vehicles. Any criticism here of that?

When our pastor first came to the field, to a brand new congregation of 120 people, mostly under 40, meeting in a school, we offered him a "full time" salary of $28,000 annually, plus paid health insurance for he and his wife. He is an amateur photographer and asked if he could have time to develop a photography business, which we agreed to, and his wife is a teacher. At every opportunity, as the church has grown and prospered, we have raised his salary accordingly. He still owns his photography business, though someone else manages it for him, but we pay quite a bit more than he originally made, and it will continue to be increased as long as the church continues to grown and prosper. When he makes as much as a lawyer, which is a profession that I consider equal to the hours he puts in, the training he has to have, and the stress he must endure, then we might consider that he makes enough. Until then, it keeps going up.

While I see the point you are trying to make, it’s a hard thing to define. For instance, Falwell drives a Chevy. He’s also stated his salary on many occasions and has turned down more prosperity. That being said, in some cases I feel he might be a little overboard. A lot of times it’s personal wealth that was acquired outside the ministry etc. It’s just not an easy thing to define.

 

[rbell]

I think you will see a very clear correlation between word of faith, "name it and claim it" preachers with extravagant lifestyles.

If you believe that being right with God automatically translates to wealth and health...you have to be rich. Otherwise, you're not right with God.

Yet another reason to ditch that heresy...you become unapproachable to the common person.

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

Here's an interesting article that was linked on another board I go on. I thought it appropriate to put here in this discussion. /quote]

This sort of thing strengthens my strong preference to work through and give to denominational missions organizations rather than the independent ones. Part of the problem is that many of the organizations cited are but the lengthened shadow of their founder/CEO ... meaning that the Board does not really exercise supervision and oversight. I would hazard a guess that in many of these cases, the so-called governing boards do not truly govern, but just exist to satisfy tax laws and to cultivate people of influence. So they give the CEO essentially whatever he wants.

In denominational ministries, there are such things as real Boards, salary grids, and other controls. While I do suspect that some denominational executives are getting rather substantial salaries, I'd suspect that most are not. More mission for the buck and more accountability attracts my allegiance every time.

 

[Tom Butler]

Some thoughts on all this:

1. Some of the comments brought to mind the old prayer, "Lord, you keep our pastor humble, and we'll keep him poor."

2. A church should be looking for ways to pay its pastor more, regardless of size. If at all possible, a church should try to make sure that money worries never distract the pastor.

3. We ought to be glad, yea tickled, that a church can pay its pastor $100,000 a year. Let's make it $200,000 if we can. I'll guarantee you, he'll earn every penny of it.

4. For every preacher who flaunts his wealth I'll take you to 200 who you'd never know their salaries. Conceit is not problem for them.

5. Whose business is it what a church pays its pastor? Do we not realize that the ability of a church to pay its pastor a handsome salary is a gift from God? The ability of any church to meet its obligations is a gift from God.

6. And for those who worry that wealth will make a pastor proud: I believe the God who called him can handle this with no trouble.

 

[PeterM]

Some thoughts on all this:

1. Some of the comments brought to mind the old prayer, "Lord, you keep our pastor humble, and we'll keep him poor."

2. A church should be looking for ways to pay its pastor more, regardless of size. If at all possible, a church should try to make sure that money worries never distract the pastor.

3. We ought to be glad, yea tickled, that a church can pay its pastor $100,000 a year. Let's make it $200,000 if we can. I'll guarantee you, he'll earn every penny of it.

4. For every preacher who flaunts his wealth I'll take you to 200 who you'd never know their salaries. Conceit is not problem for them.

5. Whose business is it what a church pays its pastor? Do we not realize that the ability of a church to pay its pastor a handsome salary is a gift from God? The ability of any church to meet its obligations is a gift from God.

6. And for those who worry that wealth will make a pastor proud: I believe the God who called him can handle this with no trouble.

Bless you sir for your thoughtful insight and intellegent expression!!!

 

[gb93433]

Church people, who are for the most part ordinary, everyday, run of the mill folks, can be important leaders in the church. As such, they have control over the pastor and church staff, especially if they have some role in church personnel or the finance committee, etc. They are nobody at work, and they have to take orders from someone else, but at church, they are the big fish in a small pond. They can make life miserable for a pastor.

Before I pastored I had my own business and at one time managed a very large business. Of the churches I pastored there were very few deacons who I felt were leadership material and that I would even consider hiring in the secular world. Yet scripture demands higher qualifications of leadership than the world.

 

[MorganT]

I was originally thinking of pastors such as Fred Price and I didnt think God would bless someone in that much of excess. However after listening to the radio show today (christian radio) they were speaking of King Solomon and well I guess God will give riches to his called people.
My problem is not with a true man of God pastor my problem is with men that have fooled the ordination council and have a piece of paper that says they are ordained ministers and are using the church as a business to get rich rather than to do Gods will. Yes they are out there and we all know that they are.

 

[PeterM]

Before I pastored I had my own business and at one time managed a very large business. Of the churches I pastored there were very few deacons who I felt were leadership material and that I would even consider hiring in the secular world. Yet scripture demands higher qualifications of leadership than the world.

Two issues:

1. Deacons shouldn't necessarily be selected based upon "leadership potential" as they are not called and seperated to lead, but to serve. (Acts 6)

2. The structure of Pastor and Deacon creates the clear opportunity for the Pastor to pour into the lives of these men and to disciple them into reproducing, world impacting disciples.

That said, I do agree that the standards for leadership in the church should be recognized and practically implemented.

 

[John of Japan]

John R. Rice’s Inheritance

I just got back from a wonderful missionary family camp. I read this whole thread and thought I might have something to add.

John R. Rice, my grandfather, wrote over 200 books and pamphlets. His book on prayer sold over 400,000 by the time he died, and he had quite a few other books that went into the 100,000 level, with his best seller being his small book on Heaven, which sold about 500,000 by the time he died, I believe.

His guiding principle was to live by faith, using only the offerings from his evangelistic meetings to live on. His royalties from his books went into his Christian publisher and paper, the Sword of the Lord Foundation. Even his wife got no income from his books, though she was well taken care of. His will gave the rights for all books to the Sword. Only the royalties from his songs went to his wife. All other income was also plowed right back into God's work. He kept his books cheap so the common man could afford them, gave away thousands of them, sold them at a loss (50% off) every time he went to a Bible college. He also paid for millions of his tract, "What Must I Do to Be Saved?" to be printed around the world.

When he died, he left to his wife a small, farmed out 40 acre farm outside of Murfreesboro, TN, and a small home he had built on it. There were also a couple of remodeled Air Force barracks for the family when we all showed up at Christmas and vacation. As I remember, he bought the farm for about $25,000 in 1962.

A funny thing happened to that property. I-24 was built right next to it, chopping off a small piece of the property. Then when Grandma died a few years after Grandpa, the property was sold to the developers for $1,000,000!! There is now a John R. Rice Blvd. there with a Sam's Club and other stores on the property where I used to ride horses with Grandpa.

John R. Rice's five surviving daughters and their husbands divided that money into two, with half going into a foundation supporting the daughters' Christian paper for women, The Joyful Woman. The other half was divided between the five daughters. That money carried my parents through after Dad retired from 60 years of preaching with no retirement, nothing but social security. After Dad died, did Mom have a problem? Nope. You see, their number one son, my brother, had worked at over 40 jobs before finally settling down at a little software company in Seattle called Microsoft! My brother retired in middle age and is one of those Microsoft millionaires you hear about. He bought Dad and Mom a house after Dad retired, and takes good care of Mom now that she is in a retirement home.

I said all of this to say: God can take care of His preachers. They don't need a large salary, they don't need big annuities. A nice retirement account is good, but God can help His preachers who don't have one. Prov. 13:22--"A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just."

 

[El_Guero]

John

I agree. And I thank God for His provision for your family. And, for the thousands of pastors that do not have a family heirloom - it would be nice to be given a living wage . . .



God bless you

Wayne

 

[gb93433]

I said all of this to say: God can take care of His preachers. They don't need a large salary, they don't need big annuities. A nice retirement account is good, but God can help His preachers who don't have one. Prov. 13:22--"A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just."

When scripture says that God will meet all of our needs that does not include surgeries and health care. If that were the case He could have just said we will never die. Those needs are what He determines.

If one reads scripture who is to take care of the needs of the pastor? Those he pastors. Too many churches delegate that responsibilityt to others and society. My dad rents a place to a retired pastor who can afford very little. So my dad charges him less. My dad is not a Christian. Mnay times my dad mentions about how well the pastor is taken care of. He isn't. The average retirement of pastors in the SBC would shock anyone.

The salary and annuties are dependent upon the country. Would you advocate that the public pay the medical expenses of a preacher who does not have any insurance and needs surgery.?
I am damaged for life because at one time I believed that. I did not have insurance and thought my health was good and I would be okay. One day I was in class and in a few minutes I was in the hospital and later a 60,000 dollar hospital bill. Most of it was paid by the public. The first hospital I went to was a private hospital and did not operate on me because of no insurance. The doctor told me in private that to go to the public hospital and they would operate on me.

Try getting the necessary surgery or care without insurance coverage.

 

[gb93433]

John

I agree. And I thank God for His provision for your family. And, for the thousands of pastors that do not have a family heirloom - it would be nice to be given a living wage . . .

I know a pastor who pastored for many years in the same town and had very little to retire on. When he got sick and retired, the town and churches pitched in and bought he and his wife a lot and built them a very nice brick home. I would rather see that kind of care than stingy people. Imagine what non-Christians thought of that kind of treatment.

A Christian testimony of love and care is more important than money. Jesus had something to say about how the world will know we are Christians.

 

[PeterM]

I know a pastor who pastored for many years in the same town and had very little to retire on. When he got sick and retired, the town and churches pitched in and bought he and his wife a lot and built them a very nice brick home. I would rather see that kind of care than stingy people. Imagine what non-Christians thought of that kind of treatment.

A Christian testimony of love and care is more important than money. Jesus had something to say about how the world will know we are Christians.

Amen... I love to see generosity born out in love in those who are passionate followers of Jesus Christ.

 

[John of Japan]

When scripture says that God will meet all of our needs that does not include surgeries and health care. If that were the case He could have just said we will never die. Those needs are what He determines.

If one reads scripture who is to take care of the needs of the pastor? Those he pastors. Too many churches delegate that responsibilityt to others and society. My dad rents a place to a retired pastor who can afford very little. So my dad charges him less. My dad is not a Christian. Mnay times my dad mentions about how well the pastor is taken care of. He isn't. The average retirement of pastors in the SBC would shock anyone.

The salary and annuties are dependent upon the country. Would you advocate that the public pay the medical expenses of a preacher who does not have any insurance and needs surgery.?
I am damaged for life because at one time I believed that. I did not have insurance and thought my health was good and I would be okay. One day I was in class and in a few minutes I was in the hospital and later a 60,000 dollar hospital bill. Most of it was paid by the public. The first hospital I went to was a private hospital and did not operate on me because of no insurance. The doctor told me in private that to go to the public hospital and they would operate on me.

Try getting the necessary surgery or care without insurance coverage.

Personally, I'm not one who says we should have no insurance or no retirement fund. There is a proper balance between faith and practice. Faith says that God can take care of me no matter what. Practice says that I should prepare for the future and save. Insurance, IMO, is a method of saving for future problems, and the Bible doesn't forbid that but on the contrary praises it in Proverbs (don't have time to look it up).

 

[John of Japan]

I know a pastor who pastored for many years in the same town and had very little to retire on. When he got sick and retired, the town and churches pitched in and bought he and his wife a lot and built them a very nice brick home. I would rather see that kind of care than stingy people. Imagine what non-Christians thought of that kind of treatment.

A Christian testimony of love and care is more important than money. Jesus had something to say about how the world will know we are Christians.

This is well said. God's first plan is for us to take care of each other. If we don't He may step in and take care of His man.

I was once in a camp meeting with a retired missionary couple attending. They were truly struggling, with very little in the way of retirement funds after offering their entire lives to God on a foreign field. The pastor got up and began asking pastors to take those missionaries on for support strictly for the purposes of their retirement. (Many churches drop a missionary when he retires from the field.) By the end of the service they were well taken care of!:thumbs:

 

[LeBuick]

Personally, I'm not one who says we should have no insurance or no retirement fund. There is a proper balance between faith and practice. Faith says that God can take care of me no matter what. Practice says that I should prepare for the future and save. Insurance, IMO, is a method of saving for future problems, and the Bible doesn't forbid that but on the contrary praises it in Proverbs (don't have time to look it up).

I agree even though your grandfathers testimony is not a common one. I do believe and know God will take care of his servants. There are times when this is done via the Church he is pastoring. Not all Churches can afford insurance or retirement plans but when a man is blessed with a flock that can afford those things, there is no reason they should not bless the man of God.

The story of your grandfather, now that's a story of faith.

 

[John of Japan]

I agree even though your grandfathers testimony is not a common one. I do believe and know God will take care of his servants. There are times when this is done via the Church he is pastoring. Not all Churches can afford insurance or retirement plans but when a man is blessed with a flock that can afford those things, there is no reason they should not bless the man of God.

The story of your grandfather, now that's a story of faith.

I think a key to Grandpa's story that I did not mention was that he gave so much to God's work. In my father's case, he preached the Gospel for 60 years, until he could preach no more because of Alzheimer's. I know because of these two men that God has a special place in His heart for His servants who give their all to Him, eschewing fame and fortune.

Luke 6:38--"Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again."

If you give your all to God, He will surely care for you. Ps 37:25--"I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread."