Wealthy Pastors

[ituttut]

In another thread I kind of got off topic so I will bring it here and start this thread. My thoughts about Pastors receiving high compensation and living rich are that they are not looking after GODs money.

(snipped)
Here are some basic responsibilities from 1 Timothy 5 that most honor God.


• Provide for you family (5:8)
• Provide for widows (5:3, 16)
• Provide for church leaders (5:17)

You make some good points MorganT.

I see the first listed is provide for our family. I at one time committed to "tithe". What a disaster for my wife and two young children, and myself. As I grew I found I was trying to be a Jew, living by the law, and really being worse than an infidel for not properly taking care of my own. Marrying at a young age, and 2 children within the first 3 years, with not much income, is not conducive to tithing. This did not last very long. As I grew in Christ (and the income, freely giving) I found there was a "divide" in His Word. When I looked closely I found He was not even talking to me while He was on earth as God/man that came for only His own Nation.

We have salvation available to us, and today there are no promises made to us of happiness, monetary abundance, health or anything else. Our churches should see that our Pastors and their family are adequately taken care of. Beyond that, the churches obligation has ended, and the "good" Pastor is satisfied in the Lord.

But I can't see where One hundred thousand is out of the question today for a Preacher of a church with a few hundred members. Many churches no longer furnish a parsonage at no cost. I sold one of my houses about 8 years ago to a Baptist preacher. He was in his forties. He and his wife were quite apprehensive of owning a home, as his two previous churches had furnished a home, utilities, and a limited car allowance. But I told him what it cost us to live on in our retirement, and this helped relieve their anxiety for his future income was somewhat larger than mine, which it needed to be for my home is paid for.

If some give directly to a Pastor, or he makes outstanding investments, I believe he has every right to possess, and spend own self and family within reason. But, if he (or wife) drives a high priced luxury or sport car, the danger is in offending the "weaker Christian". While it may raise the eyebrows of people such as you and I (probably because it may cost more than ours), we would come to accept it as long as it did not interfere with his relationship and effectiveness with God, and the membership.

Such a Pastor in his Liberty in Christ (I Corinthians 10:23) is doing a "questionable thing", just as this Post brings to the forefront of a church (if very small). One, or both of these actions panders to the carnal, which takes us to Romans 14. Over indulgence in matters such as this are not edifying or profitable for the cause of Christ?

A Pastor that demands too much, or a church that gives in is without understanding, forcing the weaker Christian into the sin of judging the Pastor/church as a "sinner", for the "babe" does not understand all things are "lawful" to we in Christ. The Pastor, and/or church sin by hurting the "babe".

The layman can get away with certain things where a Pastor cannot, and should not expect to. It is the Pastors place to be on guard to be careful to not offend the weaker Christian. And it is the duty of every Christian to do the same. We talk about sin, and it is almost always the sin that we think we see others do. I, as so many here, am saved by the Grace of God for sins such as this. That is why I praise and thank God that He has forgiven me all of my sins, for so many times we have no idea that we have sinned, or realize too late that we have.

 

[preachinjesus]

okay, not to beat a dead horse but I will say there are limits to pastoral compensation. In particular I read this:

http://www.abpnews.com/1318.article

and get sick to my stomach. There are ethical limits to what a pastor can receive in ministry. This is ridiculous...I don't know what else to say.

 

[rickh]

okay, not to beat a dead horse but I will say there are limits to pastoral compensation. In particular I read this:

http://www.abpnews.com/1318.article

and get sick to my stomach. There are ethical limits to what a pastor can receive in ministry. This is ridiculous...I don't know what else to say.

Should there be limits to the layperson's compensation? Why is the pastor seen as a villain if he makes a decent living? Do you have any Scriptural support for saying that there should be a limit on what a pastor makes?

Before anyone jumps to any conclusions and flips their lid, I am not talking about the extreme cases where a pastor steals money or is using his influence on people to suck the life out of them financially. I'm just tired of hearing people say that it's wrong for a pastor to make $100,000 and not backing it up with Scripture. Is it wrong for anyone else to make $100,000?

BTW, I am not a pastor!!!!

Ricky

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

Has anyone in this thread thought of and quoted the Scripture, "The love of money is the root of all evil"? There may be nothing inherently wrong with a $100K salary for a pastor if he has not angled for it or demanded it, and if the church genuinely wants to pay it. But even so there is the spiritual danger of becoming enamored with one's earning power.

I notice in the article that has been posted that one of the pastors with a very poor financial history is now in a megachurch. I reckon megachurch also means mega-salary. How is it we continue to reward arrogant behavior?

As for the tax evasion charges ... I had a staff member who announced to me that he did not intend to calculate and pay the Social Security/Medicare portion of his taxes, because he "couldn't afford to". I told him he had no option other than to declare himself a conscientious objector and opt out of Social Security ... but of course it was too late for that and he did not do it. A couple of years later the IRS required our church to garnishee his salary until the back taxes and penalties were caught up. We also discovered that he ordered computer equipment on the church's credit line, for himself, without authorization; when discovered, he claimed he "was gonna" pay it back. Needless to say, he was strongly encouraged to move on!

 

[preachinjesus]

Should there be limits to the layperson's compensation? Why is the pastor seen as a villain if he makes a decent living? Do you have any Scriptural support for saying that there should be a limit on what a pastor makes?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here...check my other replies in this forum and then click the link above.

Before anyone jumps to any conclusions and flips their lid, I am not talking about the extreme cases where a pastor steals money or is using his influence on people to suck the life out of them financially.

yeah...click the link and read the rest of the thread

I'm just tired of hearing people say that it's wrong for a pastor to make $100,000 and not backing it up with Scripture. Is it wrong for anyone else to make $100,000?

and my position in this entire thread has been that it's not our job to question the salary figures of pastors in other churches when that particular church determines the salary for the pastor. My point here is that certain kinds of "compensation" like this mentioned above go beyond ethical, pastoral, and theological allowances.

BTW, I am not a pastor!!!!

that's nice

 

[MorganT]

1Co 9:1-19 I am free, am I not? I am an apostle, am I not? I have seen Jesus our Lord, haven't I? You are my work in the Lord, aren't you? (2) If I am not an apostle to other people, surely I am one to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord! (3) This is my defense to those who would examine me: (4) We have the right to eat and drink, don't we? (5) We have the right to take a believing wife with us like the other apostles, the Lord's brothers, and Cephas, don't we? (6) Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? (7) Who would ever go to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat any of its grapes? Or who takes care of a flock and does not drink any of its milk? (8) I am not saying this on human authority, am I? The law says the same thing, doesn't it? (9) For in the law of Moses it is written, "You must not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." God is not only concerned about oxen, is he? (10) Isn't he really speaking on our behalf? Yes, this was written on our behalf, because the one who plows should plow in hope, and the one who threshes should thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. (11) If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap material benefits from you? (12) If others enjoy this right over you, don't we have a stronger claim? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with everything in order not to put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. (13) You know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple and that those who serve at the altar get their share of its offerings, don't you? (14) In the same way, the Lord has ordered that those who proclaim the gospel should make their living from the gospel. (15) But I have not used any of these rights, and I'm not writing this so that they may be applied in my case. I would rather die than let anyone deprive me of my reason for boasting. (16) For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast about, for this obligation has been laid on me. How terrible it would be for me if I didn't preach the gospel! (17) For if I do this voluntarily, I get a reward, but if I am unwilling to do it, I am still entrusted with an obligation. (18) What, then, is my reward? It's to be able to preach the gospel free of charge, and so never resort to using my rights in the gospel. (19) Although I am free from all people, I made myself a slave to all of them to win more of them.

It really doesnt come right out and say its wrong to make a huge sum of money preaching, however it does seem to say that its better to do it for free because it says "I get a reward" This is from the NIV version.

 

[StefanM]

It really doesnt come right out and say its wrong to make a huge sum of money preaching, however it does seem to say that its better to do it for free because it says "I get a reward" This is from the NIV version.

That is true, but that is the minister's choice. Churches will try to underpay their ministers to ensure "reward."

 

[MorganT]

I believe that a pastor should be provided for he and his family however I am against paying a man huge sums of money so that he can flash it around. These celebrity preachers that boast of having million dollar jets and million dollar homes, and million dollar cars "I" have a problem with. It is a stumbling block to "me" therefore it must be "wrong" right. HMMMMMMMM

 

[rbell]

I guess we are then led to the question,

"How much is too much?"

Obviously, smart folks understand there is a vast difference in what a certain salary gets you depending on your area's cost of living.

But again, I ask, at what point is the salary too much salary?

I'm paid quite well by my church for what most student ministers make. But I can make justifications for that. If our youth group were a church unto itself, it would likely have two full-time staff members. We've grown nearly a thousand percent in the six years I've been here. And our church is now healthy and growing.

I've never asked for any raise or bonus. They've simply been provided by a very generous body of believers.

Anyhoo, ya'll know where I'm coming from. Repeating the question, at what point is the salary too much salary?

 

[MorganT]

at what point is the salary too much salary?

When it goes to your head I guess.
When you have so much you wonder what to buy next.
I think if you make money off of the lord then some of it should be invested back into the lord.
These are just somethings that come to my mind.

 

[El_Guero]

Is there any universe in which you could make money that was not from the Lord God?

When it goes to your head I guess.
When you have so much you wonder what to buy next.
I think if you make money off of the lord then some of it should be invested back into the lord.
These are just somethings that come to my mind.

 

[MorganT]

Just because everything is from the lord doesnt automatically make it Gods glory as you will notice from what Paul is saying in 2 Corithians.


2Co 11:1-16 I wish you would put up with a little foolishness of mine. Yes, do put up with me! (2) I am jealous of you with God's own jealousy, because I promised you in marriage to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. (3) However, I am afraid that just as the serpent deceived Eve by its tricks, so your minds may somehow be lured away from sincere and pure devotion to Christ. (4) For if someone comes along and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or should you receive a different spirit from the one you received or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you are all too willing to listen. (5) I do not think I'm inferior in any way to those "super-apostles." (6) Even though I may be untrained as an orator, I am not so in the field of knowledge. We have made this clear to all of you in every possible way. (7) Did I commit a sin when I humbled myself by proclaiming to you the gospel of God free of charge, so that you could be exalted? (8) I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you. (9) When I was with you and needed something, I did not bother any of you, because our brothers who came from Macedonia supplied everything I needed. I kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and I will continue to do so. (10) As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, my boasting will not be silenced in the regions of Achaia. (11) Why? Because I do not love you? God knows that I do! (12) But I will go on doing what I'm doing in order to deny an opportunity to those people who want an opportunity to be recognized as our equals in the work they are boasting about. (13) Such people are false apostles, dishonest workers who are masquerading as apostles of Christ. (14) And no wonder, since Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. (15) So it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their doom will match their deeds! (16) I will say it again: No one should think that I am a fool. But if you do, then treat me like a fool so that I can also boast a little.

Verse 13 is why you should always question Pastors I know I know this is a sore subject for some of you since some think they are above being questioned however you will see that even Satan masquerades as an angle. Just because some have a title of Pastor doesnt mean anything to me they could be one of Satans and masquerading to be one of Gods.

 

[rickh]

I think if you make money off of the lord then some of it should be invested back into the lord.

Everyone "makes money off of the Lord" if you believe he provided your current place of employment. Does that mean we shouldn't be allowed to make but just enough to squeak by? The pastor is not held to a different standard in this area than we are...ummm....at least he shouldn't be. If you believe he should be, back it up with some Scripture.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I had a staff member who announced to me that he did not intend to calculate and pay the Social Security/Medicare portion of his taxes, because he "couldn't afford to". I told him he had no option other than to declare himself a conscientious objector and opt out of Social Security ... but of course it was too late for that and he did not do it.

Speaking of opting out, my mother lives in a small community in East Texas where the majority of people are retired and have a very fixed income. The part-time pastor of the small Baptist church (about 150 elderly members) where my parents used to attend opted out of Society Security many years ago. He is facing retirement, but hadn't saved much money and claimed he had put most of what he had saved into an emu farm a few years ago.

He push forward a motion to raise his salary to $100,000 (from somewhere around $30,000) because his son was making that much at another Baptist church. Furthermore, his salary was supposed to increase by $20,000/yr for five years after that. The pastor really laid down a lot of guilt and fertilizer until he cajoled enough people to make the motion pass. As soon as it passed, nearly half of the people in the church left and joined the local Methodist church as associate members, including the associate Baptist pastor, the pianist, and several deacons.

After that fiasco, I doubt the church had enough money to pay the pastor what they had agreed because the church has been in steep decline. The Methodist church is booming, and the Methodist ministers struggle with maintaining a Methodist identity because more than half of their attending members are Baptist. :tongue3:

 

[tinytim]

:laugh: A Baptist takeover........cool :laugh:

 

[MorganT]

Everyone "makes money off of the Lord" if you believe he provided your current place of employment. Does that mean we shouldn't be allowed to make but just enough to squeak by? The pastor is not held to a different standard in this area than we are...ummm....at least he shouldn't be. If you believe he should be, back it up with some Scripture.

I will back it up with pleasure

1Ti 3:1-7 This saying is trustworthy: The one who would an elder be, A noble task desires he. (2) Therefore, an elder must be blameless, the husband of one wife, stable, sensible, respectable, a lover of strangers, and teachable. (3) He must not drink excessively or be a violent person, but instead be gentle. He must not be argumentative or a lover of money. (4) He must manage his own family well and have children who are submissive and respectful in every way. (5) For if a man does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church? (6) He must not be a recent convert, or he might become arrogant and fall into the condemnation of the devil. (7) He must be well thought of by outsiders, lest he fall into disgrace and the trap set for him by the devil.

I dont have to be held accountable to this scripture only a Pastor/Elder/Bishop does. Yes he is held to a different standard than I am.

 

[Lagardo]

To my knowledge, the ability to opt out of social security is provided for those who have a religious belief against any assistance from the government.

To me, unless a pastor is preaching this and living it (in all areas), he really shouldn't be opting out for financial reasons. It just seems dishonest.

 

[LeBuick]

To my knowledge, the ability to opt out of social security is provided for those who have a religious belief against any assistance from the government.

To me, unless a pastor is preaching this and living it (in all areas), he really shouldn't be opting out for financial reasons. It just seems dishonest.

It's as honest as making the motion for your own raise???

 

[Lagardo]

It's as honest as making the motion for your own raise???

I don't believe that is appropriate either. However, with the issue of opting-out, my point was that a pastor is making a statement to the IRS that may not be true.

 

[rbell]

I don't believe that is appropriate either. However, with the issue of opting-out, my point was that a pastor is making a statement to the IRS that may not be true.

correct.

Any minister who opts out of the Social Security Ponzi Scheme (my bias is showing):tongue3: for financial reasons is breaking the law, and is being dishonest. That's a sin. The law requires that your opt-out be on religious grounds.

I don't like the SS scheme, but my objections aren't religious. Lots of ministers are one day gonna get in trouble over this one.