Right on!:thumbsup: Seems easy enough to understand but some choke on the bones and cannot grasp that. Perhaps meats too much for some.:smilewinkgrin:
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Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
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Right on!:thumbsup: Seems easy enough to understand but some choke on the bones and cannot grasp that. Perhaps meats too much for some.:smilewinkgrin:
Pitchback
Jesus is the first born from the dead, no one was born again, regenerated, made alive, before Christ died on the cross. No one goes through a door before the door is created. Time travel is disallowed.
Yes God did formulate His plan of redemption before the foundation of the world. But you can not go through a door planned to be created before the door is created.
God could put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars. We are to stick with what the Bible says, rather than pushing doctrine based of what the Bible does not say. The issue is not what God is capable of doing, all things are possible with God, but rather what God has revealed in His word He did do.
Not exactly. Believers have faith, but the OT believers had to wait to be made perfect, whereas for the NT believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Jesus is the first born from the dead, no one was born again, regenerated, made alive, before Christ died on the cross. No one goes through a door before the door is created. Time travel is disallowed.
1 Peter 1:11 says OT believers had His Spirit in them. Scripture say we are at war with God but through His blood we are at peace with Him. OT saints looked forward and God passed over their sins"credited". Same with after the cross....even when Jesus already paid the price"it is finished" it does not apply till he is recieved. OT saints were saved just like NT saints.
The fact that OT writers of scripture had the Holy Spirit "in" them is not in dispute, but the claim this indicates they were regenerated, born again and indwelt is in dispute. Once again a vague term is redefined to mean whatever is consistent with man-made doctrine, but scripture precludes the doctrine. Since Jesus is the first born from the dead, no OTS was born again, made alive, regenerated or indwelt until after Jesus died on the cross. Scripture says people are born again through the resurrection of Jesus. Thus no one was born again until after Jesus died.
God exists outside of time, and he had decreed from eternity that jesus would die as sin bearer for those to be saved by him, so God indeed already had jesus death provode for the Grace needed to redeem all saved since adam and Eve , but in "our time' he still ahd to come to die...
Now will say that the OT believers though saved as we are, could NOT go to heaven when dead, as jesus neededto be raised up to go back with him, so they were in paradise before he came to earth...
Since he ascended, ALl go to be in heaven with him after death!
Indeed and as scripture states this.... Romans 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;:type: Notice the later part......IN THE FORBEARANCE OF GOD HE PASSED OVER THE SINS PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED. Why? Because you cannot have a relationship with God unless the debt is paid .......so it was credited to them looking forward just as we look back. Arminians cringe at this and call me "Calvinist" when their argument fails. If ANYONE has not the Spirit he does not belong to God......it does not say "New Testament Saints only".
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False premise
God certainly exists outside of the physical time He created, but to assert "spiritual" time does not exist is simply a convenient assumption.
Next, God tells us that in time, we are born again through the resurrection of Christ, that Christ is the first born from the dead, and that we follow Him in the resurrection. Thus your premise simply nullifies the very words of God and asserts time travel, a fiction of modern man, revising God's revelation that the OTS had to wait to be made perfect.
God certainly exists outside of the physical time He created, but to assert "spiritual" time does not exist is simply a convenient assumption.
Next, God tells us that in time, we are born again through the resurrection of Christ, that Christ is the first born from the dead, and that we follow Him in the resurrection. Thus your premise simply nullifies the very words of God and asserts time travel, a fiction of modern man, revising God's revelation that the OTS had to wait to be made perfect.
Strawman arguments
Now we get "forbearance" redefined to mean the blood of Christ was applied to the OTS before Christ died. Not what it means. LOL
Next, we get you cannot have a relationship with God unless you are born again, regenerated, made alive, and saved by the blood of the Lamb. The OTS gained approval through faith, so they had God's approval through faith, and when they died, they were taken to Abraham's bosom, and held comfortably captive until Christ died waiting to be made perfect.
All of these Calvinistic arguments go directly against clear scripture, and so those who point it out are said to be using "failed" arguments and lacking in knowledge of scripture. Same old, same old and the beat of denial rolls on.
The Old Testament Saints had to wait until Jesus died to be born again, to follow Jesus in the regeneration, and to be made holy and blameless through the death of Christ.
Now we get "forbearance" redefined to mean the blood of Christ was applied to the OTS before Christ died. Not what it means. LOL
Next, we get you cannot have a relationship with God unless you are born again, regenerated, made alive, and saved by the blood of the Lamb. The OTS gained approval through faith, so they had God's approval through faith, and when they died, they were taken to Abraham's bosom, and held comfortably captive until Christ died waiting to be made perfect.
All of these Calvinistic arguments go directly against clear scripture, and so those who point it out are said to be using "failed" arguments and lacking in knowledge of scripture. Same old, same old and the beat of denial rolls on.
The Old Testament Saints had to wait until Jesus died to be born again, to follow Jesus in the regeneration, and to be made holy and blameless through the death of Christ.
the point is that ALl wer saved by the act of the Cross, and that God already knew that would happen, for he decreed it to happen in order to save sinners ruined by the Fall!
God chose and elected each one who would get saved, so to god already a done deal, but we have to actually reeceive jesus thru faith in order to have that confirmed!
Folks, now Yeshua1 has degenerated into absurdity. Christ died for all men, but not all men have been saved.
Notice yet another change of subject, another shuck and jive, another evasion of truth. The OTS were not born again before Christ died because to be born again in through the resurrection of Christ. Knowing a door will be created does not allow anyone to go through it. Time travel not allowed.
The OTS had to wait, had to wait, had to wait to be made perfect, holy and blameless, through the death of Christ.
Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, first born, first born, so everyone born again was born after, after, after Jesus died.
All they have if fiction, fiction and more fiction, time travel this, out side of time that, withholding punishment, forbearance means time travel grace. On and On it goes, twaddle to the max.
1 Sam 10:9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart Psalm 51:11 Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. Holy Spirit was alive and well in the OT. Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
There is a big difference of being used by the Holy Spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit.
John 7:39
But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
The Holy Spirit can use a burning bush a worm the messenger isn't important. It the message the word of life and the one who sent the messenger is important.
John 13:16
Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
Those who repent live.Enoch did it, turned to God and walked with Him.
Psalm 119:105
[ נ Nun ] Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
John 7:39
But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
The Holy Spirit can use a burning bush a worm the messenger isn't important. It the message the word of life and the one who sent the messenger is important.
John 13:16
Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
Those who repent live.Enoch did it, turned to God and walked with Him.
Psalm 119:105
[ נ Nun ] Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
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The human spirits of the OTS were taken to Abraham's bosom, they were not taken to heaven. Thus they were alive yet still separated from God because they had not yet been washed and made holy and blameless.
The lost of this world are alive in one sense, still able to respond to the gospel, yet spiritually dead, separated from God.
So you have not two, but no scriptures to stand on. What you did is misrepresent the Holy Spirit coming upon and influencing and enabling an Old Testament Saint as being indwelt. No one was indwelt before they were washed by the blood of Jesus. After we are established in Jesus, then we are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit.
The OTS were not born again before Christ died, being born again is through the resurrection of Christ, and being made holy and blameless is through the death of Christ.
1) Jesus died for all, God desires all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.
2) Jesus is the first born from the dead, thus the OTS had to wait to be made perfect, holy and blameless until Christ died.
3) We follow Jesus in the regeneration.
4) You cannot go through a door before the door is created. Knowledge that the door will be built does not provide access.
5) Here is the Calvinist fiction, the OTS "looked forward" to Christ's death, and therefore obtained the washing of regeneration before Christ died. This view has no basis in scripture, the OTS had to wait to be made perfect until after Christ died.
The lost of this world are alive in one sense, still able to respond to the gospel, yet spiritually dead, separated from God.
So you have not two, but no scriptures to stand on. What you did is misrepresent the Holy Spirit coming upon and influencing and enabling an Old Testament Saint as being indwelt. No one was indwelt before they were washed by the blood of Jesus. After we are established in Jesus, then we are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit.
The OTS were not born again before Christ died, being born again is through the resurrection of Christ, and being made holy and blameless is through the death of Christ.
1) Jesus died for all, God desires all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.
2) Jesus is the first born from the dead, thus the OTS had to wait to be made perfect, holy and blameless until Christ died.
3) We follow Jesus in the regeneration.
4) You cannot go through a door before the door is created. Knowledge that the door will be built does not provide access.
5) Here is the Calvinist fiction, the OTS "looked forward" to Christ's death, and therefore obtained the washing of regeneration before Christ died. This view has no basis in scripture, the OTS had to wait to be made perfect until after Christ died.
Obviously not much except ranting on about Calvinisim thus trying to hijack this thread.
Pitchback
Why another change of subject, do you ever tire of evading the issue that scripture precludes your assertion? No one was born again through the resurrection of Christ before Christ died. No one was made holy and blameless before Christ died. No one was regenerated before Christ was regenerated because we follow Him in the regeneration. Thus He is the first born from the dead.
The OTS were not born again before Christ died.
Why another change of subject, do you ever tire of evading the issue that scripture precludes your assertion? No one was born again through the resurrection of Christ before Christ died. No one was made holy and blameless before Christ died. No one was regenerated before Christ was regenerated because we follow Him in the regeneration. Thus He is the first born from the dead.
The OTS were not born again before Christ died.
The word translated firstborn refers to birth order, because the first born inherited a double portion. When did Jesus become the first born from the dead? Spiritually when He and the thief entered Paradise (otherwise the thief would be the first born 
. Physically, sometime before He walked out of the tomb.
Calvinism simply shreds scripture, one verse after another, claiming nothing means what it says if it conflicts with Calvinistic fiction. Now firstborn means after all the OTS. Behold Calvinism.
. Physically, sometime before He walked out of the tomb. Calvinism simply shreds scripture, one verse after another, claiming nothing means what it says if it conflicts with Calvinistic fiction. Now firstborn means after all the OTS. Behold Calvinism.
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