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Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
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First, the living and enduring word of God includes the resurrection of Christ. Second, no one was born again before Jesus was resurrected because being born again is through the resurrection. The assertion of time travel, folks are born again through the resurrection before the resurrection simply is nullification of scripture.
And then you misrepresent scripture, it does not say we are born again without the Word of God, it says we need both the living Word of God and the resurrection, not one or the other.
Does the word of God tell us we have been born again?
Or does it tell we have been begotten again to a lively hope? By the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Now has God given us the earnest of the Spirit so that we can be confident in that, hope and do we submit to water baptism as a witness to that hope?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also of resurrection:
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Romans 6:3-5,8
Van you and I do not agree often but we do here. The word of God is the resurrection of Jesus.
Acts 26:6-8 witness until the hope became a reality in the resurrection of Jesus unto the promise there was no faith by which one could be born again.
And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: Unto which [promise] our twelve tribes, instantly serving [God] day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? 6-8
Also
And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1C15:17
No Problem
All I am saying is that both 1 Peter 1:3 and 1 Peter 1:23 must be adhered to in order to be born again. You can have faith in God without knowledge of the resurrection, but you cannot be born again except through the resurrection of Christ.
Some Calvinists claim you can be born again through the resurrection of Christ BEFORE Christ was resurrected. They use time travel to nullify a clear requirement stated in scripture. So it goes with liberal interpretations, nothing means what it says if it conflicts with Calvinism.
All I am saying is that both 1 Peter 1:3 and 1 Peter 1:23 must be adhered to in order to be born again. You can have faith in God without knowledge of the resurrection, but you cannot be born again except through the resurrection of Christ.
Some Calvinists claim you can be born again through the resurrection of Christ BEFORE Christ was resurrected. They use time travel to nullify a clear requirement stated in scripture. So it goes with liberal interpretations, nothing means what it says if it conflicts with Calvinism.
psalms109:31
Active Member
I will not notify one scripture with another or to reconcile into my own understanding. I agree we are born again by the resurrection same as the old testament saints. Yet they were not there just like we are not but it does not matter which side you are on you are still born again by the enduring word of God pointing to Jesus. They have no excuse they had Moses and the prophets to listen to. If they didn't listen to them they will not even believe if someone is raised from the dead. So without the word no one is born again through the resurrection. Resurrection is nothing without knowledge or the word about it so the enduring word the faith comes first. It doesn't matter before or after the cross just believe. God will change you make you born again through His word
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Repeating that folks can be born again through the resurrection BEFORE the resurrection does not make it so. If they could be born again, why did they have to wait to be made perfect? And consider this, they were born again with spot and blemish. Sorry but that dog will not hunt.
psalms109:31
Active Member
We and them are born again by the word spoken about the one who has come is our perfection the perfect Lamb to come for them and the one who has for us.You are born again and are you perfect?
am not bitting either
am not bitting either
Absolutely, holy and blameless too. Colossians 1:22. This is the result of following Christ in the regeneration, the washing of regeneration, where we are made spiritually complete, holy and blameless in Christ.
No one is born again before they are spiritually placed in Christ, washed by His blood, (the circumcision of Christ) and then they arise in Christ a new creation, born again from above.
Summary of thread, the OTS gained approval through faith, Hebrews 11:1-2. They did not follow Jesus in the regeneration before Jesus was regenerated. They were not born again, before Jesus became the first born from the dead. They were not born again through the resurrection of Christ before Christ's resurrection.
Colossians 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
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We are saved by grace through faith. When something occurs "through" something, whatever was utilized occurs first. Thus we enter a room through a door. Our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand. And we are born again through the resurrection of Christ. Thus Christ must be resurrected, the first born from the dead, before we can utilize His body and His blood to be born again and be washed with His blood.
psalms109:31
Active Member
I know you will have the last word so I will not continue repeating myself. Regeneration before faith is ridiculous if it is the resurrection only and the enduring word has nothing to do with it then you have to believe in regeneration before faith. The blood of Christ did not change me it did not make me born again and the resurrection did not either until the enduring word of God the the living word that gave me the Spirit and life about it. So we are born again by the enduring word of God. The old testament people had the word spoken by Moses and the prophets to be born again by that Spoke all about Jesus. We do become together a new creation in Christ but we are born again by His word. Do you believe you were born again by the resurrection with out the word about it? I believe born again is to be changed to live a new life waiting for the perfect lamb to take way our sins. To walk with God as Enoch did.
Since you are going to have the last word you can answer that question, but my boots are dusted off
Since you are going to have the last word you can answer that question, but my boots are dusted off
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Hi Psalm139:31, yes you are repeating yourself and ignoring what I said.
I did not say we are born again without the Word of God. You have repeated this misrepresentation of my posts several times. I said we are born again through the Word of God AND the resurrection of Christ.
Yes we can come to faith based on the promises of the Word of God, but we cannot receive those promises until they are kept. You claim you can be born again through faith in the promise of the Lamb, but the blood of the Lamb is not actually needed. When you enter a room through a door, the door is actually needed or you did not go through the door. A person who believes a door will be built in a wall separating him from God must wait for the door to use the door. Otherwise you are talking about time travel which is science fiction used to nullify biblical truth.
I did not say we are born again without the Word of God. You have repeated this misrepresentation of my posts several times. I said we are born again through the Word of God AND the resurrection of Christ.
Yes we can come to faith based on the promises of the Word of God, but we cannot receive those promises until they are kept. You claim you can be born again through faith in the promise of the Lamb, but the blood of the Lamb is not actually needed. When you enter a room through a door, the door is actually needed or you did not go through the door. A person who believes a door will be built in a wall separating him from God must wait for the door to use the door. Otherwise you are talking about time travel which is science fiction used to nullify biblical truth.
Yet another fiction of Calvinism
Calvinism is based on rewriting scripture. The assertion above says Romans 5:2 does not mean what it says.
We have been all through the "merit" shuck and jive numerous times. Our faith has no merit, it is just another of our human works of righteousness, in God's eyes a filthy rag.
God instructs us to believe in Christ Jesus for whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. So we put our faith and devotion in Christ, trusting in the promise of God to those in love Him.
But it is God who soverignly chooses to credit our faith, or not, as righteousness, i.e. something of merit. Thus God provides the merit, not us.
Calvinism denies Paul's teaching that faith is not works, they say if we choose to trust in Christ autonomously, then we are advocating a works based salvation. This is a liberal and errant interpretation with no actual basis in scripture.
Calvinism is based on rewriting scripture. The assertion above says Romans 5:2 does not mean what it says.
We have been all through the "merit" shuck and jive numerous times. Our faith has no merit, it is just another of our human works of righteousness, in God's eyes a filthy rag.
God instructs us to believe in Christ Jesus for whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. So we put our faith and devotion in Christ, trusting in the promise of God to those in love Him.
But it is God who soverignly chooses to credit our faith, or not, as righteousness, i.e. something of merit. Thus God provides the merit, not us.
Calvinism denies Paul's teaching that faith is not works, they say if we choose to trust in Christ autonomously, then we are advocating a works based salvation. This is a liberal and errant interpretation with no actual basis in scripture.
Returning to topic, the OTS were not born again before Christ died on the cross. Scripture precludes this assertion, 1 Peter 1:3 which says people are born again through the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.
The OTS gained "approval" through faith, and they were set apart in Abraham's bosom, hence Old Testament Saints, including those mentioned in Hebrews 11. They had to wait to be born again until the New Covenant in His blood was inaugurated, Hebrews 11:39-40. For we are made perfect, i.e. holy and blameless, in His body, having been reconciled (i.e. passed through the door separating our Holy God from sinners) through His death, Colossians 1:22.
The OTS gained "approval" through faith, and they were set apart in Abraham's bosom, hence Old Testament Saints, including those mentioned in Hebrews 11. They had to wait to be born again until the New Covenant in His blood was inaugurated, Hebrews 11:39-40. For we are made perfect, i.e. holy and blameless, in His body, having been reconciled (i.e. passed through the door separating our Holy God from sinners) through His death, Colossians 1:22.
psalms109:31
Active Member
So we agree it is the enduring word of God concerning Jesus and the resurrection that we are born again by we just don't agree the old testaments had access to it because they are before it happens? So Enoch wasn't born again. He was taken by God not living the new life. I don't agree with that Enoch was living the new life born again, He is just not the new creation in Christ yet. He walked with God you can't be more born again than that.
Enoch will always be the reason I don't agree with you. Enoch is such a great witness that can't be ignored. Saying I am in error does not make it so. If I don't agree with you does not mean I am in error. My question are to find out how you believe not used to make a judgement on you but to see what you believe. I deserve the same courtesy. I want to dust my boots but that other question is important to me to find out?
Enoch will always be the reason I don't agree with you. Enoch is such a great witness that can't be ignored. Saying I am in error does not make it so. If I don't agree with you does not mean I am in error. My question are to find out how you believe not used to make a judgement on you but to see what you believe. I deserve the same courtesy. I want to dust my boots but that other question is important to me to find out?
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Why revert to your anti-Calvinist ignorance and vitriol when this is about the Gospel, not Calvinism.
The fact of the matter is this: If, as you say, "Our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand," then it is something we do--having faith, excising faith, whatever--that causes God to respond to us. This is an inversion of the way God works where He is always the Main Actor and we, humans, are always the ones who respond.
Your statement is a denial of the Gospel because it makes God's grace something we earn.
The Archangel
convicted1
Guest
If man produces his own faith, he produces his own justification. Just sayin'.....
LOL, Calvinists defend their doctrine by claiming Romans 5:2 does not say "We have also obtained access through Him by faith into this grace in which we stand,(B) and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. (HCSB)
Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (ESV)
through whom we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of God’s glory. (NET)
Our faith is just another work of righteousness which we have done, a filthy rag in the eyes of God and without merit. It is God who credits our faith in Christ as righteousness or not, Romans 4:4-5. Calvinists have nothing but insults to refute scripture after scripture after scripture showing to many that the doctrines of TULI are mistaken interpretations.
Next we get the assertion, again a denial of scripture, that we justify ourselves when we choose to trust in Christ. Unless God credits our faith as righteousness, our faith provides no, zero, zilch, nada, justification. To be justified is to be reconciled to God and this is through Christ Jesus, Colossians 1:22.
Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (ESV)
through whom we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of God’s glory. (NET)
Our faith is just another work of righteousness which we have done, a filthy rag in the eyes of God and without merit. It is God who credits our faith in Christ as righteousness or not, Romans 4:4-5. Calvinists have nothing but insults to refute scripture after scripture after scripture showing to many that the doctrines of TULI are mistaken interpretations.
Next we get the assertion, again a denial of scripture, that we justify ourselves when we choose to trust in Christ. Unless God credits our faith as righteousness, our faith provides no, zero, zilch, nada, justification. To be justified is to be reconciled to God and this is through Christ Jesus, Colossians 1:22.
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Hi Psalm109:31, I have shown from scripture why your view is precluded by scripture. Enoch could not have been born again through the resurrection of Jesus before Jesus was resurrected. You cannot enter a room through a door before the door exists. You are simply ignoring scripture that precludes being born again before Christ died, and then claiming "walking with God" is code for being born again, just as you claimed "being taken up" was code and "entering His rest" was code. There is nothing I can say to deter you from this folly. If you change the meaning of words and phrases to fit your theology, you believe in yourself and your doctrine, not the inspired words of God.
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