Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?

[percho]

Yes. When God puts us spiritually in Christ, we are baptized into His death, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ, our body of flesh (sin) is removed, then we arise in Christ a new creation, holy and without blemish, washed by the blood of the Lamb. Colossians 1:22.

And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor. 15:17

If the Christ, who in the body of his flesh through death, had not been made alive again in the flesh of his body, would we still be in our sins? Would our sins be washed from us by his blood, had he not been made alive?

Was it the regeneration (being made alive) of the dead Christ that allowed his blood to wash away our sins?

 

[Van]

Deflection

Hebrews 4:3
Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’” And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.

It does not matter if we are looking forward to the one who will crush the serpents or back we are still placed in the same Christ Jesus we are born again through the enduring word of God.

We are not to be lead by the flesh by the mind of the flesh. We are to not lean on our own understanding but trust in the Lord. Our mind should be on the word of God being lead by it. His word is Spirit and life to the dead. It is telling men not to trust in themselves if we believe we are something we are not we deceive ourselves.

Job 16
“Earth, do not cover my blood;
may my cry never be laid to rest!
19 Even now my witness is in heaven;
my advocate is on high.
20 My intercessor is my friend[a]
as my eyes pour out tears to God;
21 on behalf of a man he pleads with God
as one pleads for a friend.

Enoch is still my example of this.

I provided verses which preclude being "in Christ," "born again," "regenerated," "made alive," and you did not address the fact your view is precluded.

Instead you reference yet another verse. And after I point out Hebrews 4:3 does not support your view, you will go to yet another verse.

Here you effort is to equate OTS entering His rest, with being placed in Christ, rather than Abraham's bosom. Since the OTS had to wait to be made perfect, and we are made perfect in Christ, that view is precluded.

 

[Van]

And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor. 15:17

If the Christ, who in the body of his flesh through death, had not been made alive again in the flesh of his body, would we still be in our sins? Would our sins be washed from us by his blood, had he not been made alive?

Was it the regeneration (being made alive) of the dead Christ that allowed his blood to wash away our sins?

Christ's death on the cross, His sacrifice, is what makes the precious blood of the Lamb able to wash away (remove) our sin. Christ's resurrection proves God accepted His sin offering, thus when we are born anew, it is through the resurrection of Christ Jesus. He laid down His life as a ransom for all, and then was resurrected by the power of God.

 

[percho]

Christ's death on the cross, His sacrifice, is what makes the precious blood of the Lamb able to wash away (remove) our sin. Christ's resurrection proves God accepted His sin offering, thus when we are born anew, it is through the resurrection of Christ Jesus. He laid down His life as a ransom for all, and then was resurrected by the power of God.

And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]. Matt. 26:39 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. Luke 22:43 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. Matt. 26:42 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Luke 22:42 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Hebrews 5:7

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Hebrews 12:4

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Hebrews 5:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Phil 2:8 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Would The Father have given Jesus his Son life from the dead had Jesus not learned and become obedient unto death even the death of the cross?

Would the blood of Jesus have washed out sins from us had he been unable to strive against sin of not being obedient?

Was it not for this obedience of faith that the Father gave him a name above every name? Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Was that because of obedience unto death?

When will this obedience be applied to the OT saints? When will they be born again?

Why is Jesus called the beginning, the firstborn from the dead? Would he been the firstborn from the dead had he not learned obedience through sufferings?

 

[Van]

Hi Percho, you asked lots of questions.

Jesus was the Lamb of God. Jesus knew no sin. He was sinless, without blemish. Thus His death on the cross provided the sin offering needed to take away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 11:39-40 teaches the OTS were made perfect after the New Covenant was inaugurated, because they were not made perfect, i.e. washed with the blood of the Lamb, apart from the New Covenant in His Blood saints.

The questions about what would have happen had Jesus not lived a sinless life, even though tempted in every way we are, are moot. He was obedient even to death on the cross, dying as a ransom for all.

 

[psalms109:31]

Van I do not believe in regeneration before faith I am not that kind of Calvinist.

I believe we are regenerated changed by His word, born again by that. You don't have to receive the Holy Spirit to be changed born again like Enoch, Abraham who did not receive what was promised but together with us.

I am not thinking of just right now.

I do not see a difference between the one looking back to the one who crushed the serpents head or forward at all they both are being born again through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Job seen Him as His advocate with the scripture that was given

David seen Him in Psalms 22.

They seen it because they were born again by His word not already born again before His word.

We are born again by the enduring word of God not only by the words Spoken by Jesus but by the word pointing to Him before it happened.

It says by the enduring word of God not only by the words of Jesus, but also the words about Him.

Romans 10

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 However, they did not all heed the [Or gospel]good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [Or concerning Christ]of Christ.

Things in [] is in the index of your NASB bible.

Romans 10:17

New International Version (NIV)

17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Romans 10:17

New King James Version (NKJV)

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Van]

The problem with the old "the OTS were saved by looking forward" is that it ignores the sequence given by God's inspired word. You have to nullify verse after verse that clearly teaches Jesus is the first born from the dead, thus the spiritually dead OTS were not born again from being spiritually dead to be made alive in Christ. It is only "in Christ" that we are united with Christ, made alive, regenerated, made perfect,born anew.

1) Your view says Christ was not the first born from the dead.

2) Your view claims the OTS did not follow Christ in the regeneration.

3) Your view claims the OTS had the gospel of Christ, the "my word" of John 5:24.

4) The OTS did obtain approval through faith. That does not mean they were made alive together with Christ, or were born again before they were spiritually "in Christ."

5) Your view equates coming to faith through the revelation given before the mystery of Christ was revealed. This included passages concerning the coming Messiah, i.e. the word of God about Christ, with being born again. Two different things.

6) Here is your problem. You must be born again to enter heaven. But none of the OTS had entered heaven (the third heaven, the abode of God) before Christ died. If they had been born again, they would have been made perfect, having undergone the circumcision of Christ. But they had to wait until the New Covenant in His blood was inaugurated.

7) Many scholars think "the living and enduring word of God" is not a reference to scripture but to Jesus, the Logos.

 

[psalms109:31]

We are born again through the enduring word of God we become the new creation in Christ if they were the same thing there would be no reason to use different terms. Jesus Christ is the new creation only in Him we become the new creation Together with them we become this new creation in Christ.

Enoch is the example of the new birth to show how to be born again to walk with God by His word the new creation is in Jesus only.

 

[Van]

First, many times different phrases are used to describe the same thing.

For example the Word of God is used to describe Jesus and to describe the gospel of Christ.

No verse says Enoch was "born again."

(NET) Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see death, and he was not to be found because God took him up. For before his removal he had been commended as having pleased God. 11:6 Now without faith it is impossible to please him, for the one who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."

So Enoch gained approval through faith, and so was taken up (off the surface of the earth so no one could find him) but this is fully consistent with being taken to Abraham's bosom.

There is no actual support in scripture for OTS being born again before Christ died, because they were not made perfect in Christ. OTOH, many verses preclude OTS from being (1) regenerated, (2) born anew, (3) made perfect, (4) having eternal life, (5) and being made alive.

1) All those regenerated had to "follow Christ" in the regeneration. Only after Christ died could they do that. (Matthew 19:28)

2) Everyone who is born again is born again through the resurrection of Jesus. (1 Peter 1:3) Jesus had not been resurrected during OT times, therefore no OTS was born again before Christ died.

3) The OTS had to wait to be made perfect in Christ until after the New Covenant in His blood was inaugurated. (Hebrews 11:39-40)

4) Everyone who has eternal life has it through "my word" the gospel of Christ. (John 5:24) The gospel includes the death of Christ.

5) No one is "quickened" made alive outside of Christ, everyone is made alive together with Christ. (Ephesians 2:5)

Your alternate assertion must nullify or make to no effect all these scriptures.

 

[psalms109:31]

I don't believe you can be taken by God until you are born again and Enoch walked with God.Same with Elijah when he returned to prepare the way for Jesus He came in the Spirit and power of Elijah. Jesus said if you are willing to accept it John the Baptist is Elijah. We are born again through the enduring word of God just like Elijah. Elijah came back filled by the Holy Spirit in an empty vessel named John the Baptist. To prepare the way for Jesus

I am not going to argue when we don't see things the same way and say what you said about me. I am not notifying anything that is your opinion.

 

[Van]

A person can be taken to Abraham's bosom without being born again. In fact, if they had been born anew, they would have been taken to heaven. But Jesus said no one has ascended to heaven.

I did indicate your assertion had no basis in the bible, simply reading vague words, like taken up or entering rest, and claiming that means they were born anew before Christ died. Sorry if that offended you, I was addressing your mistaken view.

 

[psalms109:31]

Is it Enoch busem or Abraham. The scripture clearly teaches how we are born again is by the enduring word of God of God. It is not only the words of Jesus but also the word about the one who will crush the serpents head. It is your assertions that it is not words but Jesus Himself. I was changed being born anew from the words about Jesus, before that nothing was happening the same with the old testament saints. Questioning my salvation is what you are doing. I am not doing as you say it is your opinion. Me and you don't see things the same way I don't have see like you to be wrong or right

 

[psalms109:31]

I would never been born again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ if I never new anything about it thus being born again by the enduring word of God.

 

[Van]

Yes scripture teaches we are born anew through the living and enduring word of God. But you cannot say people are born anew not through the resurrection of Jesus. The only sound view is it takes both the blood of Jesus and His revelation, the gospel of Christ in order to be born anew.

Sound doctrine must be consistent with all scripture, not a few scriptures interpreted in a way inconsistent with other scriptures. Thus your view, based on 1 Peter 1:23 taken in isolation ignores the requirement of through the resurrection of Jesus in 1 Peter 1:3.

Jesus called the place of the dead saints Abraham's bosom. What it was called before Abraham died is not given in scripture.

 

[psalms109:31]

The only difference between them and us is they are looking forward and being born again by the enduring word of God and they have to wait for us after the resurrection to become the new creation in Christ. We are going in circles.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes scripture teaches we are born anew through the living and enduring word of God. But you cannot say people are born anew not through the resurrection of Jesus. The only sound view is it takes both the blood of Jesus and His revelation, the gospel of Christ in order to be born anew.

Sound doctrine must be consistent with all scripture, not a few scriptures interpreted in a way inconsistent with other scriptures. Thus your view, based on 1 Peter 1:23 taken in isolation ignores the requirement of through the resurrection of Jesus in 1 Peter 1:3.

Jesus called the place of the dead saints Abraham's bosom. What it was called before Abraham died is not given in scripture.

It doesn't exist anymore, for since his death/resurrection/ascension, ALl saved who die go to be in his presense!

OT believers were saved by the Cross, just as NT saints were, its just that they are not in the Church!

 

[Van]

Circles?

The only difference between them and us is they are looking forward and being born again by the enduring word of God and they have to wait for us after the resurrection to become the new creation in Christ. We are going in circles.

One of the ways folks make scripture to no effect is to invoke time travel. That way the OTS could follow Jesus in the regeneration, and be born again through the resurrection. But if one accepts God's inspired word as written, then the OTS were not regenerated or born again until after Jesus died. You continue to point to 1 Peter 1:23, born again through the living and enduring word of God, yet denying the requirement of being born again through the resurrection of Christ. We are not going in circles, I am putting forth what scripture says.

 

[percho]

IMHO The living, flesh and blood, born again or not, will not precede the dead in Christ in inheriting the kingdom of God and all shall not die but all shall be changed, born again, from flesh and bones with the life being in the blood to flesh and bones with life in the spirit.

And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: Matt 20:23

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also of resurrection:

Is the baptism we have ahead of us our being born into the kingdom of God by resurrection from the dead and or instant change? Our becoming souls with life in the spirit rather than souls with life in the blood?


What was the purpose of the resurrection of Jesus? Is it not to give life to that which is dead?

 

[percho]

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten

Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

In a figure of whom?

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, [saying,] In thee shall all the nations be blessed.
and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, `And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, `And to thy seed,' which is Christ;

This is the word of God and it is all about the resurrection of the Christ. Isaac has not been raised from the dead.


The word of being begotten again by the word is the word concerning the resurrection of Jesus. The resurrection of Jesus is called the firstborn from the dead because Jesus was the first man regenerated from the dead with eternal life.

 

[psalms109:31]

One of the ways folks make scripture to no effect is to invoke time travel. That way the OTS could follow Jesus in the regeneration, and be born again through the resurrection. But if one accepts God's inspired word as written, then the OTS were not regenerated or born again until after Jesus died. You continue to point to 1 Peter 1:23, born again through the living and enduring word of God, yet denying the requirement of being born again through the resurrection of Christ. We are not going in circles, I am putting forth what scripture says.

Have only put forth scripture to show the fact is we are born again by the enduring word of God past and or present and future pointing to Jesus Christ. If you do not have the knowledge of the resurrection it does no effect to anyone so we are born again by the enduring word of God pointing to Jesus our resurrection. Without the enduring word of God you have nothing to put your faith in to be born again so as I say again we are born again by the enduring word of God and there is plenty of old testament scripture pointing to Jesus to be born again by.

What is the use of the resurrection without the word concerning it?

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”