Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?

[Van]

Your wrong but I guess you cannot admit your own fault and therefore you interpretation is blurred.

This is not John 5:24 and NSAB wont help you eather.

Folks, the false charge was I misquoted John 5:24. I paraphrased the verse, and quoted from it, "my word" which was an accurate quote. Thus, because the OT saints, did not have Christ's gospel, it was a mystery, they did not have eternal life, according to John 5:24. Thus the verse provides absolutely no support for the false premise that the OTS were indwelt.

Was my paraphrase a quote? Nope. This whole effort to find fault is an effort to shift discussion from the false premise to my imperfect paraphrase. LOL

 

[Van]

A person has eternal life the moment they believe.

Scripture please. When God places a person spiritually in Christ and indwells him with the Holy Spirit, they have eternal spiritual life. They also will inherit eternal physical life at their resurrection. This is the only view consistent with all scripture.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Folks, the false charge was I misquoted John 5:24. I paraphrased the verse

Oh NOW you was paraphrasing?:laugh: Let the discerning see through your sillyness.:laugh:

 

[Van]

see YOUR post 142. "Shall have eternal life" is not NASB friend. YOU CORRECTED YOURSELF in post 147 AFTER playing the victim card with NO apology.

Post 142 is quoted in post 147. I quoted from the verse in post 142, and my quote was accurate. You effort to find fault rather than acknowledge your premise is without support is obvious.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Post 142 is quoted in post 147. I quoted from the verse in post 142, and my quote was accurate. You effort to find fault rather than acknowledge your premise is without support is obvious.

Sure do a lot of gymnastics to pull that off.:laugh:

 

[Jedi Knight]

Scripture please. This is the only view consistent with all scripture.

If your not honest with me I will not play ball with you.:wavey:

 

[Van]

Hi Jedi, yet another false charge and another evasion of the obvious.

The OTS were not indwelt under the Old Covenant, because they had not yet been washed with the blood of Jesus. No scripture as been offered that is inconsistent with that view.

I did not misquote the verse, but my paraphrase was imperfect. I provided the complete quote of the verse in a subsequent post, and the difference did not alter the truth that the OTS did not have Christ's word, nor had the new Covenant in His blood been inaugurated.

Therefore the premise, the OTS were indwelt, has no scriptural support when contextually considered. OTOH, several verses preclude the premise as a possibility, such as Hebrews 11:39-40 which says the OTS were not made perfect (i.e. washed with the blood of Jesus) apart from the New Covenant believers.

 

[psalms109:31]

Old-testament saints were being born again by the enduring word of God the first one we hear about is Enoch, who walked with God.

It does not mean they possessed the Holy Spirit, it says Abraham did not receive what was promised.

Moses was being born again by the enduring word of God through a burning bush.

Many people was used by the Holy Spirit even a burning bush, a worm even, it doesn't make them special. The messenger isn't special but the message and who sent them is.

I will not make man the center piece, we are God and His word as the center piece to point to Christ Jesus our Lord, our God, our Savior...

It wasn't until after Jesus is glorified that Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit and making it a permanent indwelling in all those who believe.


Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

Luke 1:15
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

Luke 1:17
And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

John 20:22
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Luk 24:49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

Why would they need to wait for what was promised at Pentecost if they all ready received a permanent indwelling?

 

[Van]

Psalm 139:31, I think you should use a different term than "being born again" for the OTS who obtained approval through faith. A more accurate term would be "set apart." To be born again is to be regenerated, and no one was regenerated until Christ died on the cross, because the washing of regeneration occurs with the blood of Jesus.

OTOH, thanks for adding to the list of verses that preclude OTS of being indwelt, i.e. John 7:39.

 

[psalms109:31]

We are and they are being born again through the enduring word of God being changed. It does not make a difference if you are looking back at the one who has crushed the serpents head or looking forward to the one who will we are being born again by the same Jesus Christ we are born again through the enduring word of God. If they did not receive the promise they are born again through His word, the new birth mother's womb. Regeneration before faith is ridiculous being changed by His word is not.

 

[Van]

All the OTS are in Christ now, having been born again, made perfect by the blood of the Lamb. But the OTS were not born again before Christ died on the cross. The OTS were set apart, i.e. therefore saints.

1) We are made perfect in Christ.

2) We are washed by His blood in Christ, the washing of regeneration.

3) We are born again in Christ, made alive together with Christ.

4) We are put in Christ by the Holy Spirit baptizing us into His death.

Therefore no one was put in Christ, made perfect, born anew, regenerated, or made alive before Christ died. Its a lock.

 

[psalms109:31]

We are simply born again by the enduring word of God Enoch is prof of this he never died and was known to walk with God the only way for that is not to be perfect no one is that but Jesus Christ but to walk by His word.

You are talking about the new creation in Christ Jesus I am talking about being born again by His word to enter His rest in Christ Jesus.

The scripture clearly teaches what we are born again by which is His word.

 

[Jedi Knight]

the OT believers experienced the new birth and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When Nicodemus was bewildered about Jesus' demand for new birth by the Spirit, Jesus responded (John 3:10), "Are you a teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand this?" In other words, I'm not teaching or requiring anything new. Any Israelite who has ever been saved had to be born again by God's Spirit. Otherwise how would they ever overcome their natural hostility to God? How could they have ever submitted to God's law and pleased him—as many did, like Abel and Noah and Abraham and Moses and Rahab and Ruth and Deborah and David?

Paul says in Romans 8:7–9, "The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed, it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit if the Spirit of God really dwells in you." There are two groups of humans: those in the flesh (born of the flesh) and those in the Spirit (born again of the Spirit). Those in the flesh are devoid of the Spirit and cannot submit to God's law or please God. Those in the Spirit are indwelt by the Spirit and are enabled by him to fulfill the just requirement of the law.

This means that all the saints of the OT who trusted God and followed his ways in the obedience of faith were born again by the Spirit and indwelt by the Spirit. For example, Numbers 14:24 says of Caleb, "My servant Caleb, because he has a different Spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into this land." And Numbers 27: 18 says, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Take Joshua the son of Nun, in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him.'" The OT believers were saved the same way we are: they were born of the Spirit, they trusted in God's promises, and they followed his commandments in the obedience of faith. John Piper. I totally agree.

 

[Van]

Assertions not scriptural

We are simply born again by the enduring word of God Enoch is prof of this he never died and was known to walk with God the only way for that is not to be perfect no one is that but Jesus Christ but to walk by His word.

You are talking about the new creation in Christ Jesus I am talking about being born again by His word to enter His rest in Christ Jesus.

The scripture clearly teaches what we are born again by which is His word.

No one is born again except by God placing them spiritually in Christ.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

We are born again through the resurrection of Christ.

1 Peter 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Scripture cannot be broken, so we are born again not solely through Christ, but also through Christ's word (John 5:24).

Taken together, scripture teaches God puts us in Christ where we are made alive, i.e. born again, through the living and enduring word of God and through the resurrection of Christ. Thus no OTS was born again because they did not have the gospel of Christ and Christ had not yet shed His blood. It is a lock.

 

[percho]

Psalm 139:31, I think you should use a different term than "being born again" for the OTS who obtained approval through faith. A more accurate term would be "set apart." To be born again is to be regenerated, and no one was regenerated until Christ died on the cross, because the washing of regeneration occurs with the blood of Jesus.

OTOH, thanks for adding to the list of verses that preclude OTS of being indwelt, i.e. John 7:39.

What do you mean when you said, "the washing of regeneration occurs with the blood of Jesus"?

That we were washed from our sins by the blood, of his death?

 

[Van]

Your Calvinism is showing

the OT believers experienced the new birth and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When Nicodemus was bewildered about Jesus' demand for new birth by the Spirit, Jesus responded (John 3:10), "Are you a teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand this?" In other words, I'm not teaching or requiring anything new.

The New Covenant was promised in the Old Testament. By the works of the Law, no flesh is justified. Christ is revealing part of the mystery which had not been revealed fully.

No one can be born again without Christ's blood.

Any Israelite who has ever been saved had to be born again by God's Spirit. Otherwise how would they ever overcome their natural hostility to God? How could they have ever submitted to God's law and pleased him—as many did, like Abel and Noah and Abraham and Moses and Rahab and Ruth and Deborah and David?

This claim is without biblical support. We can set our minds some of the time on spiritual things, God's revelation in our natural men of flesh state. We can understand the milk (the essential principles of Christ) 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

Paul says in Romans 8:7–9, "The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed, it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit if the Spirit of God really dwells in you." There are two groups of humans: those in the flesh (born of the flesh) and those in the Spirit (born again of the Spirit). Those in the flesh are devoid of the Spirit and cannot submit to God's law or please God. Those in the Spirit are indwelt by the Spirit and are enabled by him to fulfill the just requirement of the law.

More mistaken Calvinist doctrine without any actual support in scripture. The assumption added to the text is that men of flesh cannot understand the milk of the gospel, yet scripture tells us that natural men received the gospel with joy. Thus scripture teaches that natural men can indeed set their minds of some spiritual things, the milk, the essential principles of Christ, some of the time. (Matthew 13:1-26.)

This means that all the saints of the OT who trusted God and followed his ways in the obedience of faith were born again by the Spirit and indwelt by the Spirit. For example, Numbers 14:24 says of Caleb, "My servant Caleb, because he has a different Spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into this land." And Numbers 27: 18 says, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Take Joshua the son of Nun, in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him.'" The OT believers were saved the same way we are: they were born of the Spirit, they trusted in God's promises, and they followed his commandments in the obedience of faith. John Piper. I totally agree.

Here we have Caleb, who was trusting and obedient to God being compared to those who doubted, Caleb had another spirit or frame of mind with in or in him. (Numbers 14:24)

Here we have Joshua, in whom is a spirit. This might mean two things, 1) his character is worthy of leadership, so the NIV, or 2) he has an anointing of the Holy Spirit equipping him for leadership service. Neither view supports being indwelt.

Next we have the verses previously referenced which precluding being indwelt before Christ died.

 

[Van]

What do you mean when you said, "the washing of regeneration occurs with the blood of Jesus"?

That we were washed from our sins by the blood, of his death?

Yes. When God puts us spiritually in Christ, we are baptized into His death, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ, our body of flesh (sin) is removed, then we arise in Christ a new creation, holy and without blemish, washed by the blood of the Lamb. Colossians 1:22.

 

[psalms109:31]

Hebrews 4:3
Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’” And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.

It does not matter if we are looking forward to the one who will crush the serpents or back we are still placed in the same Christ Jesus we are born again through the enduring word of God.

We are not to be lead by the flesh by the mind of the flesh. We are to not lean on our own understanding but trust in the Lord. Our mind should be on the word of God being lead by it. His word is Spirit and life to the dead. It is telling men not to trust in themselves if we believe we are something we are not we deceive ourselves.

Job 16
“Earth, do not cover my blood;
may my cry never be laid to rest!
19 Even now my witness is in heaven;
my advocate is on high.
20 My intercessor is my friend[a]
as my eyes pour out tears to God;
21 on behalf of a man he pleads with God
as one pleads for a friend.

Enoch is still my example of this.

 

[Yeshua1]

the OT believers experienced the new birth and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When Nicodemus was bewildered about Jesus' demand for new birth by the Spirit, Jesus responded (John 3:10), "Are you a teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand this?" In other words, I'm not teaching or requiring anything new. Any Israelite who has ever been saved had to be born again by God's Spirit. Otherwise how would they ever overcome their natural hostility to God? How could they have ever submitted to God's law and pleased him—as many did, like Abel and Noah and Abraham and Moses and Rahab and Ruth and Deborah and David?

Paul says in Romans 8:7–9, "The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed, it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit if the Spirit of God really dwells in you." There are two groups of humans: those in the flesh (born of the flesh) and those in the Spirit (born again of the Spirit). Those in the flesh are devoid of the Spirit and cannot submit to God's law or please God. Those in the Spirit are indwelt by the Spirit and are enabled by him to fulfill the just requirement of the law.

This means that all the saints of the OT who trusted God and followed his ways in the obedience of faith were born again by the Spirit and indwelt by the Spirit. For example, Numbers 14:24 says of Caleb, "My servant Caleb, because he has a different Spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into this land." And Numbers 27: 18 says, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Take Joshua the son of Nun, in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him.'" The OT believers were saved the same way we are: they were born of the Spirit, they trusted in God's promises, and they followed his commandments in the obedience of faith. John Piper. I totally agree.

The Holy spirit did NOT indwell all of the OT believer, as it seems that he came and went upon those with specific roles such as a judge, Gideon/Samson, King, prophet...

the relationship with god was in a corporate fashion, as a national election of the nation israel, while the NT VChurch has individual election of its members by God, and ALl saved are also indwelt, and have direct access to God now!

Superior due to ALl ahving the HS sealed in them now, and that the way to the throne fully openned up!

 

[Jedi Knight]

The Holy spirit did NOT indwell all of the OT believer,

Typing in ALL CAPS does not convince me.....sorry. Scripture however is very clear to me on the matter. 1 Peter 1:11