Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?

[percho]

IMHO

Because of the faith of Jesus Christ in his blood, Jesus received the grace of God his Father by being regenerated from death, receiving also from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit thereby the Father made Jesus a place of mercy, propitiation, for us. Us, being the elect of God to receive the firstfruits of the Spirit, setting them apart into the church, Jerusalem above the mother of all and they by that Spirit at the coming of the Lord will be regenerated as was Jesus.

This will apply not only to the firstfruits of the Spirit but also to those called by God from the OT.

At the coming of the Lord Abraham, Isaac and Jacob along with the elect of the NT will follow Jesus in the regeneration and sit with him in the throne of his glory.

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Heb 11:39,40

The faith spoken of there was the faith of Christ in his blood as redemption for us. Christ died for US.

Most of those in chapter 11 of Hebrews were kept under the law until, the faith, was revealed. Gal 3:23

 

[psalms109:31]

It is sad to see born again Christian walking with their own accord preaching they are born again while Enoch they can't admit lived a new life better than them. Enoch is the example of a born again Christian while others say they are born again and do not show it with their life. I try my best until the Lord says my good and faithful servant then only then i know i followed Christ.

Folly is your opinion, but Enoch is the example to the old testament of one who is born again they walk with God. Why does Moses speak of him if not to show us the way by walking with God.

I do not believe they enter the rest, but they were born again. They enter Christ after the Cross to receive what is promised with us.

Faith is shown by what we do and Enoch did. You and me don't see born again the same way so your assertion has nothing to do with what I am saying.

It is the word we walk on that makes us born again through the resurrection in the perfect Lamb to come for the old testament and it is spoken of throughout the old testament. If i seen born again the way you did than what i teach would be folly so it is not the same it being folly is your assertion.

You keep leaving out the enduring word of God about the resurrection the Perfect Lamb and the old testament saints received that, and saying what i am saying is not scriptural is your opinion because i don't see how you see doesn't make it so.

The enduring word and the resurrection are both important, but without the word about it that the old testament believers received. The Resurrection can't save anyone without the word about it and the old testament saints have no excuse because they received the enduring word pointing to it. They are born again through the door in front of them and us behind us it doesn't make a difference.

James 2 :
Faith and Works

14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Enoch is alive born again. Being born again is living a new life and through the enduring word of God we can.

 

[Van]

Notice how Calvinism constantly changes the subject. Now we can tell if a person is born again by how faithful a person is. No matter no one was born again until Jesus became the first born from the dead. Vague phrase after vague phrase is offered up and said to indicate being born again. Now we have a non-existent door being used before Christ provided the door. Absurd nonsense.

The OTS could not have been born again until after the death of Christ because we are born again through the resurrection.

What we have is simply folly, claiming what cannot be found in scripture. To be born again refers to being made alive together with Christ, undergoing the washing of regeneration where our body of flesh (sin) is removed, and we arise in Christ a new creation, holy and blameless, fully reconciled to God.

In order to be regenerated a person must follow Christ in the regeneration, otherwise Christ would not be the first born from the dead.

1) No verse says any OTS was born again before Christ died. So Calvinism simply makes it up.

2) We are born again through the resurrection of Christ. Thus no one can be born again before Christ's resurrection.

3) The OTS had to wait to be made perfect. But NTS are made perfect, holy and blameless in Christ, Colossians 1:22

Summary, the Old Testament Saints were not born again before Christ died on the cross. They were not regenerated before Christ's resurrection because He is the first born.

 

[psalms109:31]

No a born again Christian walks by His word,You can't be saved by anything you do not know about. So what is the resurrection to me and the old testament believers without the knowledge of it, so we are born again by the enduring word of God that the old testament believers received.

Regeneration before faith is ridiculous., and they got the faith by hearing the word concerning Christ the Perfect Lamb to come.


I will play tennis if you want.

We show our faith by what we do it is scripture. Our life and Spirit is the word of God just like the old testament saints. We have no life in of our self, so it comes from some where and it comes from His word.

 

[Van]

You are not playing tennis, your view is without merit. No one can be born again through the resurrection before the resurrection occurred. No one. The OTS had to wait to be made perfect, holy and blameless through Christ's death. No verse supports your claim. Your view is an invention of men with no basis in scripture.

No one goes through a door before the door is created. To assert you can go through a door that is planned to be created is without merit.

 

[Jedi Knight]

John 6:47 "He who believes in Me has [present tense] everlasting life”. People receive everlasting life before Jesus paid the price on the cross. Scripture says nothing in the OT or New Testament saying that regeneration is a new covenant distinctive.

 

[psalms109:31]

John 15:3
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

John 5:30
“I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

John 8:28
So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

John 10:18
No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

John 11:51
Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation,

John 12:49
For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

John 14:10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

Numbers 20
The Water of Meribah

8 “Take the rod; and you and your brother Aaron assemble the congregation and speak to the rock before their eyes, that it may yield its water. You shall thus bring forth water for them out of the rock and let the congregation and their beasts drink.”

9 So Moses took the rod from before the Lord, just as He had commanded him; 10 and Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly before the rock. And he said to them, “Listen now, you rebels; shall we bring forth water for you out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation and their beasts drank. 12 But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.” 13 Those were the waters of [ I.e. contention] Meribah, [Or where]because the sons of Israel contended with the Lord, and He proved Himself holy among them.

 

[Van]

Thanks Jedi, for at least presenting scripture to discuss.

He who believes in me shall not perish but have eternal life was stated by Jesus Himself before He died on the cross. This chestnut has been used to say the cross was unnecessary, Jesus did not need to be the Lamb of God. However, that is bunk.

The question is how does a person believe in Me. Could we translate this as a person believing into Me, i.e. God accepting a person's faith as righteousness and placing them spiritually in Christ. Thus a person must be put spiritually in Christ in order to be having eternal life.

This restores the essential requirement of the blood of Christ to reconcile believers into the kingdom of God.

Next, we have the assertion that regeneration is not a New Covenant distinctive. You can certainly find the promise of the New Covenant in the OT, i.e. Jeremiah 24:7, 31:31,and Eze. 11:19. However scripture is clear, the OTS had to wait to be made perfect, i.e. holy and blameless and that washing of regeneration, that reconciliation occurs through His death, Colossians 1:22.

 

[Van]

Psalm 109:31 posted up non-germane scripture, at least in my opinion. So returning to topic, the OTS were not born again until after Christ died, because people are born again through the resurrection of Christ and the Word of God. Not just the word of God.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Let the dead burry the dead. Any saint in the OT wasn't dead spiritually rather was born again just like Jesus pointed out to Nick "he was dumb founded over it". No spiritual life equals death. Some like to jump through loopholes to make their view ......though that's all it is....their view.

 

[Van]

Calvinists frequently charge their opponents with whatever malfeasance they are perpetrating, here I am charged with jumping through loop holes.

No one is born again through the resurrection of Christ before the resurrection of Christ. No loophole exists.

No OTS was made perfect, i.e. holy and blameless, except through the death of Christ which provided the washing of regeneration in His blood.

Being spiritually dead means being separated from God, being spiritually alive means being together with God (Christ). The reason the OTS did not go to heaven to be present with the Lord is they had not been born again, regenerated, made alive, quickened, washed, undergone the circumcision of Christ, arisen in Christ a new creation.

 

[Jedi Knight]

"the Spirit of Christ which was in them" 1Peter 1:11 Could not be much clearer.

 

[percho]

"the Spirit of Christ which was in them" 1Peter 1:11 Could not be much clearer.

When we, mankind, were brought forth by our mother had we been conceived (generated) in her by our flesh and blood fathers of by some Spirit?

Who was Jesus the Christ the man child of the seed of Abraham and David generated (conceived) by within the womb of his mother, the virgin Mary?
See Matt 1:20 and also John 4:23,24 God [is] [a] Spirit, actually it is Spirit the God, who is the Father to be worshiped. When Jesus was brought forth into this world he had the Holy Spirit for he was genered by the Spirit. Yet Jesus himself said if he did not go away the
Comforter, the Holy Spirit, would not come to them. Where did the spirit go? What happened? Jesus gave, died for our sins. Spirit is life. Jesus commended his spirit (life) into the hands of his Father, Spirit the God who had generated him in the womb of the virgin Mary. Jesus died. Just as dead as Adam the day he died after living 930 years awaiting his death for having eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Jesus the Son of God was dead. No life was in the soul of the flesh which is in the blood Jesus. ----- Jesus went away.

And he (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. Col. 1:18

How was he born from the dead? How was he regenerated?

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of Holy Spirit;
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11 Spirit the God renewed the dead Jesus with the Spirit commended unto his hands, regenerating Jesus from the dead. The firstborn from the dead with eternal life. Life in himself as the Father has. Read John 5:21,26

We have never had the Holy Spirit and lost it to be be renewed with it. Titus is not about us but what was done through Jesus by which we shall be saved.

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; Gal 1:1 The Father raised the Son from the dead.

The Father through the Son has given us the Spirit of adoption putting us in Christ and his church from whence we will be born, by that Spirit in us, into the kingdom of God.


We have not been born again and neither have the OT saints.

The reason my original post in this thread read, not yet.

 

[Jedi Knight]

We have not been born again and neither have the OT saints.

Baloney

1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[percho]

Baloney

1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Baloney but the best baloney, that is rag baloney!

1 Peter 1:23 is a continuation from begotten again in 1:3:

Blessed the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


Because Jesus has been raised from the dead, the firstborn from the dead, we who had no hope, now have hope.

Because we have been given the Spirit of adoption, we Titus 3:6,7 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Notice we are currently heirs not inheritors. Once we inherit then we will no longer hope.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor. 15:50
Romans 8:24,25 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, do we with patience wait for.

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13

 

[Jedi Knight]

Baloney but the best baloney, that is rag baloney!

If your not Born Again "now" your lost...plain and simple.

 

[Van]

Pitchback

"the Spirit of Christ which was in them" 1Peter 1:11 Could not be much clearer.

I addressed this mistaken view. The OT writers were inspired, therefore the Holy Spirit was in them directing their thoughts and word choices. This influence of the Holy Spirit upon OTS is not disputed, but to claim this influence amounts to indwelling, regeneration or being born again is simply an argument from silence, redefining the meaning of words to pour Calvinism into the text.

Folks could not be born again through the resurrection of Christ before the resurrection of Christ. That is why the OTS had to wait to be made perfect,i.e. holy and blameless, until Christ's death.

 

[percho]

And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. Luke 19:11,12

Can I assume he is receiving the kingdom of God?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt 19:28 ----- Is Jesus presently sitting on the throne of his Glory or is he sitting on the right hand of the Fathers throne in heaven as high priest? Is the throne of his glory the throne of David that God told Mary he would give to the child born of her? Luke 1:32,33 When will that throne be established?

I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Tim 4:1 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, Luke 19:15 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: Acts 15:16 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Rev 11:15 Does this take place at time of resurrection and reward? V18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

When Christ comes to sit on the throne of his glory, the throne of his father David, in his kingdom at his appearing, the kingdom he went to the Father in heaven to receive from, the kingdom of God, I ask does that take place at a time of regeneration in the manner of the one said to be the firstborn from the dead, and will the one who was the firstborn then be said to be the firstborn of many brethren? Will those who have been indwelt with the spirit of God at that time be changed into the image of the Son of God, no longer flesh and blood corruptible, mortal but born again incorruptible, immortal into (inheriting) the kingdom of God?

Will that be the manifestation of the presently conceived by the spirit yet unborn sons of God? Does the following verse speak of them?

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Luke 20:36

 

[Van]

Hi Percho, are you talking about the spiritual kingdom of Jesus, which exists now, or the future physical kingdom on earth? Or do you not understand spiritual renewal precedes physical renewal.

 

[Yeshua1]

Calvinists frequently charge their opponents with whatever malfeasance they are perpetrating, here I am charged with jumping through loop holes.

No one is born again through the resurrection of Christ before the resurrection of Christ. No loophole exists.

No OTS was made perfect, i.e. holy and blameless, except through the death of Christ which provided the washing of regeneration in His blood.

Being spiritually dead means being separated from God, being spiritually alive means being together with God (Christ). The reason the OTS did not go to heaven to be present with the Lord is they had not been born again, regenerated, made alive, quickened, washed, undergone the circumcision of Christ, arisen in Christ a new creation.

Actually, to God the father, the Cross of Chrsit was an Act/evernt ordained from eternity , so in that sense God could 'credit" to their spiritual accounts in OT Grace to make them believers, for BOTh OT/NT believers were saved same way, by the Messiah on the Cross death, they looked forward, we look back!