Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?

[Jedi Knight]

Calvinism simply shreds scripture, one verse after another, claiming nothing means what it says if it conflicts with Calvinistic fiction. Now firstborn means after all the OTS. Behold Calvinism.

Man up and start a thread on "Calvinism" instead of building a straw man and taking swipes to appease your flesh. You seem very obsessed over that dead guy.

 

[Van]

Man up and start a thread on "Calvinism" instead of building a straw man and taking swipes to appease your flesh. You seem very obsessed over that dead guy.

Yet another post off topic, simply disparaging my character and qualifications.

I have shown from scripture that the OTS were not born again until after Christ died because we are born again through the resurrection of Christ.

Words having meaning, through means through, not before, firstborn means firstborn, not pick of the litter. Calvinism relies upon pouring redefined meanings into words to alter the text to mesh with Calvinism doctrine.

Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, meaning He is the first one to be born from the dead. We follow Him in the regeneration, becoming one of His brothers.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Calvinism Calvinism

:laugh: :wavey:

 

[Jedi Knight]

Calvinism Calvinistic Calvinism.

:laugh::laugh:

 

[Van]

Were the Old Testament Saints born again before Christ died? No.

Why not? Because scripture precludes that premise.

How so? Scripture says we are born again through the resurrection from the dead of Christ Jesus, 1 Peter 1:3. The word through means being born again is dependent upon the resurrection. If you enter a room by going through a door, the door must exist for you to go through it. A plan for a door cannot be utilized to provide entry.

 

[jbh28]

Were Old Testament Saints Born Again?

Yes

Jesus said in John 3 "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”"

Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?

Jesus asked Nicodemus why he didn't understand this. We are still before Christ died at this point. Old testament saints were born again.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Were Old Testament Saints Born Again?

Yes

Jesus said in John 3 "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”"

Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?

Jesus asked Nicodemus why he didn't understand this. We are still before Christ died at this point. Old testament saints were born again.

:applause: Amen

 

[beameup]

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mt 24:13

And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mk 13;13

As Tribulation passages it indicates that salvation can be lost by denying Christ, and that martyrdom will mean salvation.
That tells me that the Tribulation saints are not sealed by the Holy Spirit as were the Gentile Bride of Christ.

 

[psalms109:31]

To be born again by His word waiting for the perfect Lamb that will not only take our sins away, but will pay our price for our salvation. The wages of our sin is death the only payment for our sins and all have sinned. It does not mean they have to be sealed by the Holy Spirit as we are, but with us receive this. They walked a new life, just as we do by His word. The resurrection without the words of life pointed to it i was walking my own path that leads to death.

David even with the bad he did when faced with it turned to God, repented when confronted

I praise God for this

Lamentations3:…22It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. 23They are new every morning: great is your faithfulness. 24The LORD is my portion, said my soul; therefore will I hope in him. …

Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

Psalm 89:1 A maskil of Ethan the Ezrahite. I will sing of the LORD's great love forever; with my mouth I will make your faithfulness known through all generations.

Isaiah 33:2 LORD, be gracious to us; we long for you. Be our strength every morning, our salvation in time of distress.

Zephaniah 3:5 The LORD within her is righteous; he does no wrong. Morning by morning he dispenses his justice, and every new day he does not fail, yet the unrighteous know no shame.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Actually, to God the father, the Cross of Chrsit was an Act/evernt ordained from eternity , so in that sense God could 'credit" to their spiritual accounts in OT Grace to make them believers, for BOTh OT/NT believers were saved same way, by the Messiah on the Cross death, they looked forward, we look back!

By that same logic, they were never, and in fact no Saint ever was under the threat of damnation nor ever condemned, nor ever not saved if you take it consistently.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

WOW!!! you will, on the one hand say this:

God exists outside of time, and he had decreed from eternity that jesus would die as sin bearer for those to be saved by him, so God indeed already had jesus death provode for the Grace needed to redeem all saved since adam and Eve , but in "our time' he still ahd to come to die...

So, the sin debt was already paid in a real sense and the grace credited prior to Christ's death.

BUT.......

Now will say that the OT believers though saved as we are, could NOT go to heaven when dead, as jesus neededto be raised up to go back with him, so they were in paradise before he came to earth...

So, his death is a go, his resurrection a no...got it.

Why? What justifies the logical inconsistency? Why can his Death be credited, but not the resurrection?

 

[DrJamesAch]

Were Old Testament Saints Born Again?

Yes

Jesus said in John 3 "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”"

Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?

Jesus asked Nicodemus why he didn't understand this. We are still before Christ died at this point. Old testament saints were born again.

I don't think this is proof that the concept of being "born again" was evident in the OT. Jesus was deriding him because Nicodemus SHOULD have known once Jesus explained it to him,and he just didn't get it even though he was a leader among law practicing Jews, yet a fisherman got it. Jesus also derided others for not knowing the scriptures. Matt 22:29.

Also, every Jew was baptized under John in preparation for Christ. If the born again concept was expected in the OT in the same context as the NT, then why weren't OT saints baptized in preparation for Christ?

However, I do think this is somewhat of a frivolous debate because born again is no different than being saved (in the context where "saved" is used in a gospel sense), and it is pretty clear that OT believers were saved and are never at risk of losing that salvation (duh! they're dead). Even if one believes that they needed to wait for a gospel presentation while Christ "preached unto the spirits in prison" (which I do not agree with that interpretation), what dead saint living in paradise would say no?

The one sure thing that CAN be proved is that "born again" was not introduced until the NT, and is exclusively a NT concept, and if someone reading this isn't saved, "ye must be born again" whether the OT saints were born again or not

 

[Darrell C]

Hi guys, I have only read a few pages of this thread and there looks to be a division on this issue, but I will say I am glad to see people discussing it. I have started this topic on a number of forums only to see it fizzle out due to either disinterest or an unwillingness to broach a subject which will, without doubt, have great impact on the theology one holds.

My two cents: no, men were not born again before Pentecost.

A beginning of the reason I hold this view can be found here:



Ezekiel 36:21-27

King James Version (KJV)


21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


When promise of the New Covenant was given we see a clear parallel to the New Birth, the most important aspect found in v.27, God giving us His Spirit.

So as not to get too lengthy I will submit one more passage to consider, in relation to the Promise:



Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.


The Lord taught specifically about the Promise in John 14-16, that is, concerning the Comforter (the same Greek word translated in 1 John 2:1 as "Advocate" (paraklētos)).

If they are still waiting, it is obvious they have not at this point received Him.


5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


They (the Disciples) have not been baptized with the Holy Ghost yet (see Matthew 3:11-12 to see this Baptism contrasted with the only other option available to man...judgment).


6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


The Disciples are aware of the Kingdom promised by God, and here they do not see it as having been fulfilled.

Nor does the Lord:


7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


The Holy Spirit, the Comforter, preached of by the Lord (i.e. John 16:7-13 (see also Acts 1:4 again))...has not come. He did come on the Day of Pentecost, though, and I think most would agree with that.

While it is true that the Spirit of God would indwell and empower Old Testament Saints, we understand that if the indwelling of God promised by God had been in place before Pentecost, the Promise of the Father being fulfilled after the Ascension of Christ seems to make it less of a promise rather than a continuation of a previous ministry of God in the lives of men.

God bless.

 

[plain_n_simple]

This has to be the dumbest thread ever and shows so much unbelief that a Baptist claims he or she has. It is the step before milk and then meat. The question in the OP would be from someone unfamiliar with Christianity.

 

[Darrell C]

This has to be the dumbest thread ever and shows so much unbelief that a Baptist claims he or she has. It is the step before milk and then meat. The question in the OP would be from someone unfamiliar with Christianity.

It is actually a question of great import. It is a question that would naturally arise from one that spends time in the word. It has nothing to do with being a Baptist, but of being a born again child of God.

And it is a question that many ignore.

God bless.

 

[Jedi Knight]

This has to be the dumbest thread ever.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Jedi Knight]

It is actually a question of great import. It is a question that would naturally arise from one that spends time in the word.

Amen Darrell, but sadly some get upset if you don't agree with their viewpoint and can get ugly....very ugly.

 

[Jedi Knight]

As Tribulation passages it indicates that salvation can be lost by denying Christ, and that martyrdom will mean salvation.

This is alittle off the OP but I will say John 10:5...........cannot happen. That said start an OP about "loss of salvation" and we can go futher if you like.:wavey:

 

[Jedi Knight]

WOW!!! you will, on the one hand say this:

So, the sin debt was already paid in a real sense and the grace credited prior to Christ's death.

BUT.......

So, his death is a go, his resurrection a no

John 4:23 But an hour is coming, AND is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Yes, the Father wants such people to worship Him John 5:25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming AND has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. “emphasis mine" Jesus didn't have a problem with NOW AND NOT YET DUEL application and or meaning.

 

[Van]

This is indeed a dumb thread, because 1 Peter 1:3 precludes OTS from being born again before Christ died. They were born again through His resurrection after Christ died. We follow Him in the regeneration. He is the first born (referring to birth order) from the dead. You cannot go through a door because a door is planned, you have to wait until the door is created. No one comes to the Father except through Me. We are saved by grace through faith. Using the Calvinist fiction, God looked forward in time to those who came to faith, and then used that foreseen faith to elect individuals. What is good for the goose...

No OTS was born again before Christ died on the cross. They had to wait to be made perfect, holy and blameless through the death of Christ.

And the teaching of John 3 is that you have to be born again to enter heaven, and no one, none of the OTS, had ascended to heaven. Thus the very passage used to sort of suggest support, actually provides compelling evidence against the premise.

As far as being born again equaling being saved, that is true for everyone under the New Covenant in His Blood. However, the OTS gained approval through faith and then were set apart, in Abraham's bosom. And Abraham's bosom is not Paradise or heaven, because folks went to Abraham's bosom yet had not ascended to heaven. Any teaching must be consistent with all scripture.