Were OT saints born again?

[timtofly]

Your view is not biblical, logical or rational. We start out mortal and those saved become immortal. For you to deny this is a waste.

For that to be a truth is a waste of what God created as the fullness of reality. Humans were created to be God on earth. Always present and always growing as God planned. Adam changed that and only spiritual dead descendants of Adam were allowed on the earth. Being mortal is being spiritually blind, and dead. It is only the physical body though. The soul was given to live always. It will either be always separated from God, or always with God.

 

[Van]

For that to be a truth is a waste of what God created as the fullness of reality. Humans were created to be God on earth. Always present and always growing as God planned. Adam changed that and only spiritual dead descendants of Adam were allowed on the earth. Being mortal is being spiritually blind, and dead. It is only the physical body though. The soul was given to live always. It will either be always separated from God, or always with God.

The idea, Sir, that humans are not sinning when they desire to be "god" is irrational, unbiblical and unsound.

 

[timtofly]

The idea, Sir, that humans are not sinning when they desire to be "god" is irrational, unbiblical and unsound.

Being sealed by the Holy Spirit has nothing whatsoever with sinning. Why are you equating it as such, and then declaring it as irrational, unbiblical, and unsound? Of course it is. It is not I making it that way. It is your argument that creates a false narrative. Being bound by sin is a condition. Being unbound is the first thing that happens to a believer. It does not make us any less a sinner. It just means that sin no longer has to control us. But yet sin can still control even an Apostle by way of an addiction. It does not have to control our life. But it is a thorn of the flesh, that only God can remove, not us. Paul said that God would not remove it, but gave grace that it would not control him. Even the world's wisdom knows that an addiction may never leave, but it does take work to prevent it from destroying our testimony.

Humanity in sin cannot know what a desire to be "god" is. What Satan offers is power, not "godness". The seal of the Holy Spirit can be broken before death. But why preach about unpardonable sin? It is bad enough we preach against God's Will and Plan, by the very doctrines and theology we think comes from God, when they do not. They come from human understanding only. The Bible will go against human reason and logic. Understanding can prevent us from the truth of God’s Word.

 

[Van]

Being sealed by the Holy Spirit has nothing whatsoever with sinning. Why are you equating it as such, and then declaring it as irrational, unbiblical, and unsound? Of course it is. It is not I making it that way. It is your argument that creates a false narrative. Being bound by sin is a condition. Being unbound is the first thing that happens to a believer. It does not make us any less a sinner. It just means that sin no longer has to control us. But yet sin can still control even an Apostle by way of an addiction. It does not have to control our life. But it is a thorn of the flesh, that only God can remove, not us. Paul said that God would not remove it, but gave grace that it would not control him. Even the world's wisdom knows that an addiction may never leave, but it does take work to prevent it from destroying our testimony.

Humanity in sin cannot know what a desire to be "god" is. What Satan offers is power, not "godness". The seal of the Holy Spirit can be broken before death. But why preach about unpardonable sin? It is bad enough we preach against God's Will and Plan, by the very doctrines and theology we think comes from God, when they do not. They come from human understanding only. The Bible will go against human reason and logic. Understanding can prevent us from the truth of God’s Word.

I am sorry Sir, but your response is absurd. You say people desire to be god, then say they cannot desire to be god. Enough

 

[Alan Gross]

There is a verse in the Bible that states 2020? I am to accept your word over the Word of God?

God allowed death to reign from Adam until now, exactly the same way all are sealed with the Holy Spirit. It is not a choice. It is not genetic. It is God not willing that any should Perish. It is not a forced condition nor a binding one. Just like sin is not a forced condition nor a binding one. There is free will, because it was written into God's plan of Atonement. God both allowed sin, and prevented Satan from destroying each one of us.

If there was no power at all working in us from God's perspective we would always choose sin and death. If we did not have sinful flesh we would only serve God without question like the Angels. God planned all this. Give one good reason that every human is not sealed at conception.

The Mark of the '?', indicates 'a question'.

Why would this be some reasoning a person is doing with their mind that is suffering under the curse of sin?

"Give one good reason that every human is not sealed at conception."

All were cursed in Adam, but you want to have Jesus insert a Divine Presence in every soul at 'conception', in the womb?

That gives each individual a plausible ability, 'Spiritually" to later relate to God Speaking, or conversely to be "ABLE" TO "BELIEVE", but 'choosing not to make Jesus their Savior"?

Jesus undoes Adamic sin from The Human Race, at the physical conception, by giving them a 'spark of Divinity', after God cursed Adam and all his posterity, is what you are saying?.

That's the 'one reason'.

 

[Alan Gross]

Were the disciples of Jesus called and chosen only after Jesus died on the Cross?

Where is this question coming from?

 

[Alan Gross]

There is a verse in the Bible that states 2020? I am to accept your word over the Word of God?

God allowed death to reign from Adam until now, exactly the same way all are sealed with the Holy Spirit. It is not a choice. It is not genetic. It is God not willing that any should Perish. It is not a forced condition nor a binding one. Just like sin is not a forced condition nor a binding one. There is free will, because it was written into God's plan of Atonement. God both allowed sin, and prevented Satan from destroying each one of us.

If there was no power at all working in us from God's perspective we would always choose sin and death. If we did not have sinful flesh we would only serve God without question like the Angels. God planned all this. Give one good reason that every human is not sealed at conception.

oh, there isn't any verse or Teaching in the Bible where God, "is not Willing that any should perish".

The Divine Interpretation, including the whole verse, has God Speaking to specific people.

The verse says who they are.

See if you see it.

The ones He is Talking about are after the word, "to..."

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

...

I don't know who you think wrote this, "There is free will, because it was written into God's plan of Atonement", other than Jesus Saying, "you will not...."

It is not of him that wills.

Water can be 'willing' and free to flow uphill, but there is a Law of Gravity.

Regarding the soul, there is The Universal Moral Law of God and God Sees a natural Human Being's soul when He Said,"GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

That soul is dead in trespasses and sins.

The issue of 'will' is only relevant after a sinner sees that there is "none good, no not one".

Conviction of sin, as enabled by The Holy Spirit through the Word of God and God Granting Repentance to a soul, Come before God Makes them Willing in The Day of His Power.

Psalm 110:3 "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power"

 

[timtofly]

Being sealed by the Holy Spirit does not "put God" in us nor makes us divine. We are not even divine when "full of the Holy Spirit". In fact souls in heaven are not divine. That is the misunderstanding here. The Holy Spirit gives a believer power to overcome natural laws, yes. It does not make them divine. Being a son of God by ancient understanding that makes one divine is a pagan teaching and just plain wrong. Even the church tried to elevate Mary to divinity. That is wrong. The body of Christ has nothing to do with "being God". We cannot even be godlike, until the process is completed at the end of the church age, and the end of Adam's 6000 year punishment placed on Adam's descendants by God Himself.

Satan tempted Eve, telling her that eating the fruit would make her like God. It was a lie, she was already as like God as she could be. Eating the fruit would make her unlike God and separated her connection with God. She would experience now, the evil, that would demand, that only God Himself could experience to make an Atonement on the Cross. That is the whole point that it is not by our works. Our works could never measure up to God’s perfection, because all they were and still are, is God’s punishment on all humanity. All the Holy Spirit does is seal us from the works of the Adversary, Satan himself, from being able to touch us. That is what the book of Job is about. Satan cannot touch each individual, but only accuse us of being ourselves. Satan was given control over the earth, but the Holy Spirit seals us, and only that seal gives us the freedom to choose between our own works; and righteousness of God, by the Atonement on the Cross.

Jesus' disciples were OT Jews. They were sealed at conception just like all mankind has been sealed starting on day 6, when God created many sons of God. The first 120 on the day of Pentecost, were OT Jews from all over the world. They were from the ten lost tribes in every language who still came back each year to Jerusalem for the feast. They all had been sealed from conception. So yes, who Paul wrote to as new churches springing up all over the Roman Empire and beyond, understood all this, because the Holy Spirit was already at work, and now, because of the Cross, it could all make sense.

God did not abandon any of Adam's descendants. They were just too much involved in Satan's world and blinded by their own sins. Yet we see, even in Jonah, that a whole city, Nineveh, full of Adam's pagan descendants, could in fact turn to God, the whole lot, in one day. It could even happen this very year, to the whole world, if the church, body of Christ, did the Will of God. The Will that does states, "God so loved the whole world, and not willing that any should Perish, but all come to repentance." Not just the so called elect, who definitely are not doing their elected duty. That is to win the lost to Christ. Making more disciples, to go out and do the very same thing, over and over again. God does not elect us just to be secure. God elects us for the purpose of changing the whole world.