Were they really saved?

[Claudia_T]

someone who commits suicide obviously was not "watching and waiting" for the Lord to come... and the outcome of that isnt good:

Luke 12:

36: And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37: Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38: And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39: And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40: Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41: Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42: And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43: Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44: Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45: But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46: The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.


I personally detest this idea people seem to have that you can act like an unbeliever and still go to heaven. Just because at one point in your life "you believed". Its not scriptural.

You will wind up in the same boat with the unbelivers if you act like one.

when it talks about Jesus coming, it doesnt only mean His second coming, it also means the time when your life is over. For you, thats the end. You are being an unfaithful steward obviously if your mind is on killing yourself. Just like the guy in the parable of the barns. He was busy building more and more things for himself and God said "Thou fool, thy soul will be required of you this night".

 

[rbell]

Then Claudia, we should all adopt the Catholic model...and have "last rites" administered.

This means:
-one can lose their salvation...not scriptural.
-one's salvation is based on timing (one Christian might walk around for weeks with unconfessed sin and NOT die, thus having a chance to repent, while another, seconds after sinning, dies and is cast into hell)...
-we must die sinless...not scriptural.

The idea of going to hell because of one unconfessed sin has enormous ramifications.

And I'm not suggesting that anyone should walk around with unconfessed sin. As I've said...sin in a Christian's life is an affront to a holy God. May we learn to be as repulsed by sin as God is.

 

[Claudia_T]

Then Claudia, we should all adopt the Catholic model...and have "last rites" administered.

This means:
-one can lose their salvation...not scriptural.
-one's salvation is based on timing (one Christian might walk around for weeks with unconfessed sin and NOT die, thus having a chance to repent, while another, seconds after sinning, dies and is cast into hell)...
-we must die sinless...not scriptural.

The idea of going to hell because of one unconfessed sin has enormous ramifications.

And I'm not suggesting that anyone should walk around with unconfessed sin. As I've said...sin in a Christian's life is an affront to a holy God. May we learn to be as repulsed by sin as God is.

why would we want last rites administered.

That to me is what you all are really advocating by saying that you dont really need a changed life, all you need is to at some point say "I believe" and have a little Protestant holy water sprinkled upon you with no real change of heart.

Thats what the Catholic faith is all about.... outward changes... put on from the outside and not changing on the inside. A mere formality...

No I dont need any last rites, neither do I need to be acting like the heathen at the last moments of my life... if you commit suicide then you obviously have some deep inner problems and havent given your life over to God. What you do in time of trial is really just a revealing of the symptoms of your true spiritual condition, you didnt all of a sudden get that way.

Because Jesus plainly said to watch and wait for Him (see my last post) and He said if we arent doing that and found faithful "when He comes" then you will be lost, because you obviously are not a faithful servant.

Obviously Jesus didnt just mean the literal second coming, because He wasnt coming back in their day...

Claudia

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith of His children. If His children can commit suicide, then He is not the finisher of their faith, but they are. They have chosen to have faith in some object to take away their miseries instead of the Lord Jesus Christ.

No, those who are His will finish the race, with their eyes upon Him... not on theirselves.

 

[rbell]

Claudia,
The only sin that is desribed as "unforgivable" is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Suicide is not deemed unforgivable anywhere I have found in Scripture...(in fact, Matthew 12:31 says, "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

Thus, you are left with two options to hold your view:

1. A saved person could not possibly commit suicide. (no scriptural precedence)
2. Suicide is not forgivable. (no scriptural precedence)
3. Your salvation can be "revoked" due to one sin act. (no scriptural precedence)
4. If you die with a single unconfessed sin, you couldn't possibly be a Christian. (no scriptural precedence)
5. If you die with a single unconfessed sin, God takes back His gift of salvation from you. (no scriptural precedence)

 

[Eric B]

James is not contradicting Paul's writings. Paul did not say God gives the temptations, but that God allows the temptations. God knows how much we can bear. Remember the story of Job? God did not allow so much that Job's life was anywhere in danger by satan. Nor did Job commit suicide.

God will not allow any more on us than we are able to bear. If a person who is a Christian commits suicide because his burden was too much, then that verse is an out and out lie. God knows how much we can bear. He would know if that person would commit suicide because he felt it was too much on him.

So, either God's Word is truth, and the Christian would never commit suicide because God would not put on him enough that he would do that, or it is a lie and God has put so much on that Christian knowing that the end result would be death for that individual.

I bet it is the former and God's Word is truth.

Here is what our study Bible has to say about 1 Corinthians 10:13...

Make a way to escape (lit., "an egress" or 'way out"):
In early Greek usage, this term had the sense of a landing place for a ship. The idea is thus not that He will enable us to escape temptation, but that He will enable us to land intact on the other side.
The King James Study Bible

But you're still viewing the "temptation" as whatever "pain" he's going through, and while you say that God only "allows" it and does not "give" it; you then turn right around and speak of it as something he "puts on" the person. Double-talk like this always abounds in this teaching regarding "trials". Again, this is like Calvinism, where some advocates of that doctrine deny that God predestines the "reprobates" to Hell; he only predestines the elect to Heaven, and passively "preteritions" the lost to their fate. But it's really the same thing.
So in this case, you believe, like in the case of Job, that God is the one ultimately determining which amount of "pain" to is to be "put on" the person, and what happens, is that no matter what someone goes through, instead of being compassionate, we throw all of these verses at him, and how this pain is good, God knows it's best, it's not too much, and then stand over him ready to judge if he does not have a good enough attitude, or he gets "bitter", etc. This is exactly what Job's friends did, (driving him all the further into despair) and God was not very pleased with them at all! And even though Job did not commit suicide, still, all his despair would still be condemned as proving he must not be saved by today's Christians holding this "if you 're not 'happy' in trials, you're not 'trusting' God" teaching! Again; I have been there! No; he's not committing suicide, but the whole premise by which you are holding the suicide to be a Christ-rejecting sin, can also be extended to any "bad attitude" or reaction towards pain. That is why I am pushing this issue. It goes well beyond the issue suicide; it is a total callousness that pervades much of the Church today, based on misreading scriptures and turning them into "good attitude" formulas.
And since not everyone apparently is "given" the same amount of pain, it looks like God is favoring those who have less. Especially isf these "trials" are supposed to be for sin, or "making us more like Christ". Like the person with less pain is better or something, or the flipside I mentioned yesterday on the "others may, you may not" thread, God is only working with the person who has the most pain, and the person who gets by with success God must not be working with ):"allowing to walk after his own counsel").
All of this turmoil results from taking all of these scriptures out of context and ignoring their original meanings of words.

Again, in a suicide, the act of suicide itself would be the "temptation", not whatever pain he is reacting to. So the verse on "not more than you can bear" is still correct; it's just that you are missapplying it. But again, was the jet-fueled fire, or building collapse in the towers "not more than they could bear", so they they were wrong to jump? This may not be the same exact scenario as the average "suicide", but as others have pointed out, using your like of reasoning, such a ridiculous judgment on 9-11 victims could be held, and would be quite consistent!

 

[Diggin in da Word]

The only sin that is desribed as "unforgivable" is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Suicide is not deemed unforgivable anywhere I have found in Scripture...(in fact, Matthew 12:31 says, "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

Using your logic, then all one has to do is make a profession of faith and live like the devil and still go to heaven. After all, Paul said 'if you confess Christ with your tongue, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.'

So, there is no need whatsoever to turn away from sin.

That is a very dangerous doctrine.

A good tree cannot produce evil fruit.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

If God is not allowing everybody the same amount of pain, that further proves He knows how much we can bear and that He will not allow more than we can bear.'

Sorry, but you keep pushing suicide as being forgivable and you are adding to God's Word. There are serious penalties for that.

A good tree cannot bear evil fruit.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

was the jet-fueled fire, or building collapse in the towers "not more than they could bear", so they they were wrong to jump?

Daniel 3:17-18 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever. NO, the fires of 911 were not too much for anyone that was a Christian.

 

[Claudia_T]

I think its silly to use this 911 thing when you'd die either way.

You could do that with anything just to try to null out the word of God...

the Pharisees used to do that with "honor your father and mother" called "corban" read it in the Bible... they'd do anything to try to weasel their way out of just doing what God said.

You could do exactly the same thing using murder and make some extreme circumstance as an example and thus conclude it doesnt matter if you murder someone right before death.


I personally think its awful to try to make use of the 911 thing to try and make those of us who know suicide is wrong, appear to be heartless.

That to me is shameful.

On the other hand, I also think its goofy to think that people who jumped out of a building to avoid burning to death are going to burn in hell forever.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

was the jet-fueled fire, or building collapse in the towers "not more than they could bear", so they they were wrong to jump?

1. you are bringing the jumpers into the suicide picture like they are the ones mentioned in the OP as they will not go to hell. We do not know they were Christains.

2. in saying that you are painting a picture that there could not have been any Christians who stayed in that fire, that if there were any Christians, they all jumped. Highly improbable.

3. you are implying that if there were Christians there that God would not protect them if it were His will,

 

[standingfirminChrist]

One who is of God is not going to bow down to idols without there being punishment. That is Scriptural. Anywhere people are serving other gods, there has to be punishment.

That is, in effect what that have done. They have taken their eyes of of the Savior (if they ever truly were on the Savior), and placed their faith in an object, bowing down to it as the god that could help them in trials.

If the last act on earth is placing faith in a gun or other object and not the Lord, punishment must be carried out.

 

[Claudia_T]

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." - Revelation 16:15

the word to take notice of is "keepeth"

 

[Eric B]

Isaiah 41:10
"Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee;yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness."
How has the suicide been strengthened? How has the Lord kept him?
God will not leave the true Christian in the time of despair. He has promised to strengthen and keep them.
John 14:18
"I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

If He will not leave them comfortless, why are they without comfort to the point of destroying their life?

Ephesians 2:10
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
The Christian is created in Christ Jesus unto good works. If it is unto good works, it is not unto suicide. Suicide is not unto good works.
2nd Corinthians 4:16
"For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day."
The inner man is renewed day by day because the Lord Jesus Christ is in the Christian. Does Christ abandon us and fail to renew us when we need Him most? You had better believe He does not; else He lied when He said He would never leave us, nor forsake us.
A true Christian will endure trials because of the Lord dwelling within.
2nd Timothy 4:5-8
"But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."
How has the suicide fought the good fight? How has he finished the course? How has he kept the faith? If he cannot endure the trials of life, and commits suicide how can it be said he has the Spirit of life?

A true Christian will not commit suicide. His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. If they commit suicide they are not hearing His voice, nor are they following Him.

Someone needs to explain to me how giving up on life and committing suicide is keeping the faith?

I wondered how Christians who believe in this "Perservering to the end" thing, and who believe that God causes you to do that, could also believe that you could commit suicide as the last act of your life and still go to heaven.
Because I thought that they also think that if you did something like that then that means "they went out from us because they were never one of us". Or they were not one of the "Elect" to begin with. So then how can they be saved?
To me it seems like alot of people on this Board believe in that kind of theology....that God automatically causes you to perservere to the end... "run the race" to the end.
So I dont see how they can reconcile this entire suicide thing with that.

I THINK SO... if you are busy thinking selfishly of yourself and its "your time to go" then your soul will be lost... as was this mans and you yourself are deciding that it is "your time to go" ....

Luke 12:
15: And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.
16: And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
17: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
18: And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
19: And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
20: But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

someone who commits suicide obviously was not "watching and waiting" for the Lord to come... and the outcome of that isnt good:
when it talks about Jesus coming, it doesnt only mean His second coming, it also means the time when your life is over. For you, thats the end. You are being an unfaithful steward obviously if your mind is on killing yourself. Just like the guy in the parable of the barns. He was busy building more and more things for himself and God said "Thou fool, thy soul will be required of you this night".

No I dont need any last rites, neither do I need to be acting like the heathen at the last moments of my life... if you commit suicide then you obviously have some deep inner problems and havent given your life over to God. What you do in time of trial is really just a revealing of the symptoms of your true spiritual condition, you didnt all of a sudden get that way.

Because Jesus plainly said to watch and wait for Him (see my last post) and He said if we arent doing that and found faithful "when He comes" then you will be lost, because you obviously are not a faithful servant.
Obviously Jesus didnt just mean the literal second coming, because He wasnt coming back in their day...

Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith of His children. If His children can commit suicide, then He is not the finisher of their faith, but they are. They have chosen to have faith in some object to take away their miseries instead of the Lord Jesus Christ.

No, those who are His will finish the race, with their eyes upon Him... not on theirselves.

So everybody's answer is to fish for more and more scriptures to take firther and firther out of context.
1) "comfort" in the Bible mainly speaks of assurance, especially from the cirse of the Law. You all have turned this on its ear by saying that is a person does not have some good attitude towards physical pain, then they are still under that curse, and not saved.
AGAIN, with the passages SFIC mentioned from the OT; Psalms 34:19,20 "Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivers him out of them all. He keeps all his bones: not one of them is broken". A Christian is not protected from ever having bones broken. So you all are misusung these passages, especially when you apply them to modern day mundane problems ("trials of life") that have nothing to do with the "trials and tribulations" of the Bible! And again, this is exactly the way Satan misquoted another similar passage to Jesus in His "temptation". And notice how you ignore these points!

2)Good works and shhep hearing His voice: no, suicide is not "good works" ror "following Him", but then neither is many other things we do, including the butchering of God's word to support our own callous judgment of people in despair! Again, when you pick verses out like this to build a case of judgment to Hell for not following them, you condemn yourselves!

3)So now, Claudia, a person so distraught that they commit suicide is the same as the rich person indulging in his prosperity? Scripture is taken further and further out of context!

4)Again, with the "endurance to the end". Passages torn, competely out of their context. This referred to the christians in the first century, being persecuted by the Jews and the Temple system, to renounce Christ (or change the Gospel back into Judaism), and in which case, they would be handed over to the Romans. You have no right or authority to try to project this into some other meaning, such as an act iof sin by which you think Christ is "in effect" renounced, and then go on to say the person "never gave his life to Christ". You, Claudia, belive that a person can give his life to Christ, and still lose it is he is not good enough (using these same scriptures on "perseverance"), so I do not see why you would even claim that; and the rest of you, who are supposedly "fundamental baptists"; you are denying grace!
If a Christian has committed suicide, but not renounced Christ, you cannot say his act constitutes the renunciation. In a way, it does, but just as any other sin does. Again, you would condemn yourselves. It may be a very poor testimony (and so is our coldness to our own brethren!), but that is for God to judge, not you with your misapplied proof-texts, which would condemn you along with him, is you were consistent!

I'm also surprised to see Claudia throw in that qualification about "not the second coming because He wasn't coming back in their day". But they didn't know that, and something was promised to "some of you standing here" in that same prohpecy. To whom much is given much is expected, and those in Christ's lifetime would have harsher judgments for their sins, and I believe part of the promise that would come to them in their lifetimes was more assurance (when the last remnant of the OC, the Temple was finally removed), and THIS was what they were "persevering" to! We have no authority to come and change "the end" to "whenever you die", and define "persevering" or "trusting as a good attitude to any pain that comes our way. Again, nobody has answered whether this judgment for "failing to persevere" "failing to trust", "not giving their lies to Christ", etc. applies to any Christian in a situation like 9-11

 

[standingfirminChrist]

2 Corinthians 4:8-10 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

A Christian can't be in despair! You keep saying they were in despair so we should not be saying that suicide is not an option. Since the phraise in despair means the person is without hope, a Christian cannot be in despair. Christ is their hope and He promised never to leave, nor to forsake His own.

 

[Lagardo]

2 Corinthians 4:8-10 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

A Christian can't be in despair! You keep saying they were in despair so we should not be saying that suicide is not an option. Since the phraise in despair means the person is without hope, a Christian cannot be in despair. Christ is their hope and He promised never to leave, nor to forsake His own.

So not only do true Christians not sin, but they are never distressed and never despair? That really is a horrible use of that scripture...talk about putting words in God's mouth!

 

[tragic_pizza]

A Christian can't be in despair! You keep saying they were in despair so we should not be saying that suicide is not an option. Since the phraise in despair means the person is without hope, a Christian cannot be in despair. Christ is their hope and He promised never to leave, nor to forsake His own.

Spoken like someone whose life has been free of troubles.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Putting words in God's mouth? Sorry, no fly.

Paul was not speaking of himself alone when he penned those words. He was speaking of the body of Christ. He was 'we', not 'I'.

 

[Claudia_T]

Eric!

thats just too much stuff in your post but I will try and read through it though...

 

[rbell]

Using your logic, then all one has to do is make a profession of faith and live like the devil and still go to heaven. After all, Paul said 'if you confess Christ with your tongue, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.'

So, there is no need whatsoever to turn away from sin.

That is a very dangerous doctrine.

A good tree cannot produce evil fruit.

That ain't all I said, kemosabe.

Did I not just say this????

And I'm not suggesting that anyone should walk around with unconfessed sin. As I've said...sin in a Christian's life is an affront to a holy God. May we learn to be as repulsed by sin as God is.

Read my entire posts...not just the part you look forward to picking apart.