Paul stated that Jesus was under the curse, which would be the curse from and by God!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Western vs. Eastern Soteriology
- Thread starter ntchristian
- Start date
- Status
Romans 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 8:2-17,31-39 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 John 2:1-6 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
Romans 8:2-17,31-39 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 John 2:1-6 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
ntchristian
Active Member
No one can show where the Bible teaches that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins because it's not in there. But that Jesus was a ransom is in there. That being the case, I'll go with scripture and the early church.
ntchristian
Active Member
So, you would also have to believe that Jesus was a literal door and a literal vine, right? Or else you do like everyone else, interpret literally when its fits your presuppositions and figuratively when it does likewise. That's not an attack because everybody does this.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Did Jesus ever instruct anyone to eat a door or eat a vine?
If you believe the bread at the Last Supper was figurative, then was the eating also? If not, then those who assert a literal understanding of the Eucharist to be an act of cannibalism must logically believe a figurative understanding of the Eucharist to be an act of figurative cannibalism.
ntchristian
Active Member
Just as He said this is my body and this is my blood, He also said I am the door and I am the vine. Why do you interpret one as literal and the other metaphorically? Because your hierarchy tells you to?
Walpole
Well-Known Member
The difference is the Eucharist instituted a new covenant. You cannot read the institution of the new covenant (testament) narratives without recalling Exodus 24, where after Moses offers the blood of the covenant, he and the others are taken up to eat and drink in the presence of God (communion)...
"And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, 'Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.' Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. (Exodus 24:8-11, KJV)
If the Eucharist is not the actual body and blood of our Blessed Lord, it would be the first time in all of salvation history where the figure of something would have surpassed the reality of it...
Exodus 24 (The figure) ---> The hill, the altar, the twelve, the blood, Moses, the old covenant, the eating the drinking and communion with God ---> Points to the reality of the new ---> The Upper Room, the altar, the twelve, the blood, Christ as the New Moses, the new covenant, the eating and drinking and communion with God.
God is Immanuel, not Hester Panim.
Actually, the new covenant was imitated on that Cross, and confirmed by the resurrection! RCC has Jesus still on his cross due to you not having true Gospel!
I'll go with scripture. All traditions not fully in line with scripture (and Rome as well as the Orthodox church has a slew of non-scriptural traditions) I toss out as barnacles on a ship that slow Christians down (see Hebrews 12:1-4).
Someone has to pacify by atonement the wrath of God towards sin, as he is Holy and sin must be paid and accounted for by someone.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
The Scriptures refute you. They are explicit the new covenant was instituted in the Upper Room on Holy Thursday at the Last Supper...
Matthew 26:26-28 ---> "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, 'Take, eat; this is My body.' Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you. This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.'"
Mark 14:22-24 ---> "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, 'Take, eat; this is My body.' Then He took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. And He said to them, 'This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.'"
Luke 22:19-20 ---> "And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, 'This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.' Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.'"
Here is St. Paul quoting our Blessed Lord...
1 Cor 11:23-25 ---> "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, 'Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.' In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.'"
Do you think the institution narratives by the New Moses (Christ) with the New Covenant fulfilling what Moses did with the Old Covenant (Exodus 24) is sheer coincidence?
Last edited:
Jesus yelled that it was finished when he died upon that Cross, not in the upper room!
Walpole
Well-Known Member
But when He said "it is finished" He had not yet died, nor rose from the dead! (I will follow your lead and use exclamation points for dramatic effect.)
The work of redemption wasn't finished on the cross because the resurrection had not occurred. Scripture says the resurrection is needed to complete the redemption of man...
Luke 24:7 ---> "The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again."
Romans 4:25 ---> "Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification."
1 Cor 15:17---> "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."
When Jesus said, "It is finished", He had not yet died, nor rose from the dead.
When He said "It is finished", he had neither died nor been resurrected. To understand what happened and was finished on Good Friday, we have to go back to what began in the Upper Room on the evening before. It is only in this context does it become clear. The passion of Christ actually began at the Last Supper, where the new covenant was established and instituted...
"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, 'Take, eat; this is my body.' And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, 'Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'" (Mt. 26:26-28)
"And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, 'Take; this is my body.' And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, 'This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.'" (Mark 14:22-24)
"And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me' And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, 'This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.'" (Luke 22:19-20)
It is at this moment when the new Moses, Jesus Christ, fulfills the type / figure of the old covenant of Moses in Exodus with the new reality of the Eucharistic sacrifice...
Exodus 24 (The figure) ---> The hill, the altar, the twelve, the blood, Moses, the covenant, the eating the drinking and communion with God ---> Points to the reality of the new now being fulfilled by Jesus Christ ---> The Upper Room, the altar, the twelve, the blood, the New Moses, the new covenant, the eating and drinking and communion with God.
This is finished (consummated) on the Cross on Good Friday. The Last Supper is what is consummated / completed / finished when Jesus is on the cross. The Last Supper and Calvary are one single event. Christ is both the high priest and the victim (Hebrews 9:11-12).
This does a great job juxtaposing that which began in the Upper Room on Holy Thursday with its completion on Good Friday...
(The 1:32 mark if you want to jump right to it!)
Thank you.
My wife and I visited Montreal a number of years ago. Still found memories.
Can imagine it is a difficult area to minister.
The statement of a covenant had to be confirmed by blood shed.
Blood shed went on throughout the crucifixion.
This is explained in Hebrews 9:
15Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” 21And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sIn.
- Status