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Westminster Confession Of Faith And The Fall Of Man

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Yeshua1

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Reformed said:
Since this is the Baptist Board, let me quote from the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, 6:1:



It does say "God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed it to his own glory". No where does it say that God was pleased with sin itself. To say otherwise is to be purposefully obtuse. We see this in Gen. 50:20 when Joseph said to his brothers, "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." God was pleased with the final outcome of the evil (sin) that Joseph's brothers committed, not the sin itself. In James 1, James writes to encourage his readers about the trials and persecutions they faced. Many of these trials were undoubtedly caused by sin. James was not happy with the sin, but the blessings that came in spite of the sin. The book of Job is another example. Job's wife supposed that Job was cursed by God (probably because of his sin), and he should curse God and die (Job 2:9). There are more passages I can cite, but something tells me that they will fall on deaf ears of those who have already closed them.
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Basically, what the Devil planned for bad, God turned it around for His glory and their eventual good!
 
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annsni

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AndyMartin said:
Yes, read:

"Feeling or showing pleasure and satisfaction, especially at an event or a situation"

"Willing or glad to do something"

willing - definition of willing in English | Oxford Dictionaries

don't fudge it!
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That is the "Living" dictionary - not the old Oxford. Remember that words change meaning through the ages and "pleased" doesn't mean happy to do something but instead it means "choosing to do something" back in the time that the Westminster Confession was written. I think that is what you are not understanding.
 
AndyMartin

AndyMartin

Active Member
TCassidy said:
Again, you are making the error of trying to apply 21st century definitions to 17th century word usage. Not even a first year bible college student would make that mistake.
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Instead of foolish exchanges that are getting no where. I suggest you follow this like to the full Oxford English Dictionary in the multi volume set, and check the word "pleased" here and then come back, The Oxford English Dictionary Vol. 7(n-poy) : Not Available : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
 
AndyMartin

AndyMartin

Active Member
annsni said:
That is the "Living" dictionary - not the old Oxford. Remember that words change meaning through the ages and "pleased" doesn't mean happy to do something but instead it means "choosing to do something" back in the time that the Westminster Confession was written. I think that is what you are not understanding.
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then check the multi volume oxford dictionary and come back with your evidence, The Oxford English Dictionary Vol. 7(n-poy) : Not Available : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

What you people fail to realize, is that the Confessions is written to show that God ORDAINED the fall, as it uses the word ORDERED!
 
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annsni

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AndyMartin said:
Yes, here it is, " It is someone's choice to do something". So as "pleased" is used for God and not man, the meaning is that it was God's "choice" that man fell, right?
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No. It was God's choice to use man's fall for His own glory. I think in this case, if you knew how to diagram a sentence, it would help tremendously.

Another way to state it would be: This God chose to permit their sin, having purposed to order it to his own glory, according to his wise and holy counsel."
 
Calv1

Calv1

Active Member
AndyMartin said:
THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH (1646)

"Our first parents, begin seduced by the subtlety and temptations of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory." (Chapter 6)

So, it PLEASED God to permit Adam and Eve to sin against Him by disobeying Him, and then He punishes them!

God "ORDERED" that they sinned!!!

"Pleased" = "Feeling or showing pleasure and satisfaction, especially at an event or a situation" (Oxford Dictionary)

The meaning of "please" in 1586 was, "to be agreeable, to give pleasure". Which would have been the meaning at the time this Confession was made!

This is PERVERSE! This is CALVINISM!
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First, don't call what God says about Himself perverse, just because you don't understand it and haven't studied doesn't mean you have the right to blaspheme God Almighty, who is forever blessed.

Did you know it also PLEASED GOD to have someone murdered, brutalized worse than any man ever was? Isaiah 53, "........for it PLEASED THE LORD TO BRUISE HIM", this of course is the "5th gospel", Isaiah 53. Arminians simply don't study, so they read something in isolation and come to a false conclusion.

Even Arminian Scholars admit God has at least two wills, His revealed will, "don't kill, don't steal, etc", and His secret will, there are many other terms used but this will suffice. On the one hand, yes we know God HATES SIN, He HATED, DESPISED the Sin of Adam, yet on the other hand it PLEASED HIM, for what happened after the fall "Behold man has become LIKE US, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL", before the fall man had no concept of evil, only good, so it was a good thing, see you and other Arminians need to understand reality, the Universe, is not about us, it's about GOD, ONLY by being in a fallen state can we know and appreciate God's glory, which is why He created us "Bring my sons and daughters from afar, WHO I CREATED FOR MY GLORY", when you get God centered, this stuff makes sense.

So back on topic, Christ is the perfect example. God HATES murder, especially of the innocent, yet God ordained His own Son to be brutalized, to take the punishment of the Elect on Himself, God DESPISED THIS, yet we read;

Acts 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

This is such basic stuff, this is why those with degrees are Calvinists, or those who study much are Calvinists, those who don't are ignorant Arminians. Here we have the Jews, the Romans, Judas, ALL DESIRING WHAT THEY DID, ALL ARE GUILTY, yet GOD PREDESTINED IT.

When your 2 year old tries to touch light sockets, and you spank him and he cries, you on the one hand hate it, on the other love it for you know good comes out of it. Really I'm so sick of responding to people who are BIBLICALLY ILLITERATE, I SAID IT, you and your ilk don't have a clue. Don't you know God destroyed the entire world once? Don't you know if He killed everyone and sent them to Hell no one could say He did wrong? Salvation is a OFF THE CHARTS GIFT, one that I pray some day you'll understand, God sent His Son to suffer and die for HELL DESERVING SINNERS, HE DIDN'T GIVE ANGELS A SECOND CHANCE, WHY WOULD HE GIVE ANY OF US A SECOND CHANCE?

And as far as Adam(Man) goes, God didn't have to create a law, if He didn't create a law there could be no sin, so if you disagree with the Catechism, answer, is God compelled by some outside force to create a law He knows man will violate? Did God have to put a tempter in the Garden? NO NO NO, but He did. God made a law, the first law, He also put a tempter in the Garden, Satan was guilty for tempting, Man was guilty for sinning, and God is free from any culpability.

Study please so we don't have to suffer these ignorant posts
 
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Yeshua1

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annsni said:
No. It was God's choice to use man's fall for His own glory. I think in this case, if you knew how to diagram a sentence, it would help tremendously.

Another way to state it would be: This God chose to permit their sin, having purposed to order it to his own glory, according to his wise and holy counsel."
Click to expand...
God did not ordain the fall, but he did ordain what would be the end result of it....
 
AndyMartin

AndyMartin

Active Member
annsni said:
No. It was God's choice to use man's fall for His own glory. I think in this case, if you knew how to diagram a sentence, it would help tremendously.

Another way to state it would be: This God chose to permit their sin, having purposed to order it to his own glory, according to his wise and holy counsel."
Click to expand...

You see what you say here, "having purposed to order it to his own glory", is that God predetermined the fall of man. You can change the wording but the meaning is the same. The "Reformed" position is that God "orders" everything that comes to pass, including our sinful actions. Read my other thread about Wayne Grudem on this
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AndyMartin said:
You see what you say here, "having purposed to order it to his own glory", is that God predetermined the fall of man. You can change the wording but the meaning is the same. The "Reformed" position is that God "orders" everything that comes to pass, including our sinful actions. Read my other thread about Wayne Grudem on this
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He "orders" the end result, but can do that by determining it directly, or thru use of third parties...
 
AndyMartin

AndyMartin

Active Member
Calv1 said:
First, don't call what God says about Himself perverse, just because you don't understand it and haven't studied doesn't mean you have the right to blaspheme God Almighty, who is forever blessed.

Did you know it also PLEASED GOD to have someone murdered, brutalized worse than any man ever was? Isaiah 53, "........for it PLEASED THE LORD TO BRUISE HIM", this of course is the "5th gospel", Isaiah 53. Arminians simply don't study, so they read something in isolation and come to a false conclusion.

Even Arminian Scholars admit God has at least two wills, His revealed will, "don't kill, don't steal, etc", and His secret will, there are many other terms used but this will suffice. On the one hand, yes we know God HATES SIN, He HATED, DESPISED the Sin of Adam, yet on the other hand it PLEASED HIM, for what happened after the fall "Behold man has become LIKE US, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL", before the fall man had no concept of evil, only good, so it was a good thing, see you and other Arminians need to understand reality, the Universe, is not about us, it's about GOD, ONLY by being in a fallen state can we know and appreciate God's glory, which is why He created us "Bring my sons and daughters from afar, WHO I CREATED FOR MY GLORY", when you get God centered, this stuff makes sense.

So back on topic, Christ is the perfect example. God HATES murder, especially of the innocent, yet God ordained His own Son to be brutalized, to take the punishment of the Elect on Himself, God DESPISED THIS, yet we read;

Acts 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

This is such basic stuff, this is why those with degrees are Calvinists, or those who study much are Calvinists, those who don't are ignorant Arminians. Here we have the Jews, the Romans, Judas, ALL DESIRING WHAT THEY DID, ALL ARE GUILTY, yet GOD PREDESTINED IT.

When your 2 year old tries to touch light sockets, and you spank him and he cries, you on the one hand hate it, on the other love it for you know good comes out of it. Really I'm so sick of responding to people who are BIBLICALLY ILLITERATE, I SAID IT, you and your ilk don't have a clue. Don't you know God destroyed the entire world once? Don't you know if He killed everyone and sent them to Hell no one could say He did wrong? Salvation is a OFF THE CHARTS GIFT, one that I pray some day you'll understand, God sent His Son to suffer and die for HELL DESERVING SINNERS, HE DIDN'T GIVE ANGELS A SECOND CHANCE, WHY WOULD HE GIVE ANY OF US A SECOND CHANCE?

And as far as Adam(Man) goes, God didn't have to create a law, if He didn't create a law there could be no sin, so if you disagree with the Catechism, answer, is God compelled by some outside force to create a law He knows man will violate? Did God have to put a tempter in the Garden? NO NO NO, but He did. God made a law, the first law, He also put a tempter in the Garden, Satan was guilty for tempting, Man was guilty for sinning, and God is free from any culpability.

Study please so we don't have to suffer these ignorant posts
Click to expand...

Your ignorance of the Scriptures is very clear. the passage from Isaiah 53 very clearly shows that God was indeed pleased that Jesus Christ was the Atoning Sacrifice for the sins of mankind. the "bruising" is the punishment of sins upon Jesus, as Hebrews says that it was for JOY that Jesus went to the cross!!!
 
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Yeshua1

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AndyMartin said:
Your ignorance of the Scriptures is very clear. the passage from Isaiah 53 very clearly shows that God was indeed pleased that Jesus Christ was the Atoning Sacrifice for the sins of mankind. the "bruising" is the punishment of sins upon Jesus, as Hebrews says that it was for JOY that Jesus went to the cross!!!
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Yes, as jesus knew that he would bring back SOME, not ALL to God to get saved!
 
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