What 3 verses say that a lost man cannot believe the gospel?

[atpollard]

Pretty simple concept, really.

A very simple concept, however not a concept found in the verses discussed ... that makes it a simple eisegetic concept rather than a simple exegetic concept.

 

[Alan Gross]

Except a few verses later (in every translation) the Father GAVE THEM TO HIM ... that is why they are "His Sheep" or "Of His Sheep" as contrasted with those that do not believe BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT "His sheep" or "of His sheep".

"Except a few verses"..!!!

 

[Alan Gross]

A very simple concept, however not a concept found in the verses discussed ... that makes it a simple eisegetic concept rather than a simple exegetic concept.

Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.

Exegetic: adjective. Serving to explain: elucidative, explanative, explanatory, explicative, expositive, expository, hermeneutic, hermeneutical, illustrative, interpretative, interpretive.

Had to write that down; then, look em up.

 

[Alan Gross]

1.)

"if there are some that are "given" to him "out of the world",
then there must be a world which are not given, (Gill)

Jesus the Bread of Life = Jesus is The Savior.
…36 But as I stated, you have seen Me and still you do not believe.

37 Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me,
and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will,
but to do the will of Him who sent Me.…

Berean Study Bible · Download


5 And now, Father, Glorify Me in Your Presence with the Glory I had with You before the World Existed.

6 I have revealed Your Name to those You have Given Me out of the world. They were Yours; You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

7 Now they know that everything You have given Me comes from You.…

…8 For I have given them the words You gave Me, and they have received them. They knew with certainty that I came from You, and they believed that You sent Me.


2.)

and for whom he has not so much concern as even to pray for them, #John 17:6,9

9 I ask on their behalf. I do not ask on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those You have given Me; for they are Yours.

10 All I have is Yours, and all You have is Mine; and in them I have been glorified.…

Berean Study Bible · Download



3.)
they are frequently described, as not having their names written,
and not to be found written in the Lamb's book of life,

WHY WOULD YOU NEED MORE THAN THESE THREE?

#Revelation 13:8 17:8 20:15.

3a.) 13:8 And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast— all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

9 He who has an ear, let him hear:…


3b.) 17:8 The beast that you saw— it was, and now is no more,
but is about to come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction.

And those who dwell on the earth whose names
were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world
will be astonished when they see the beast that was,
and is not, and yet will be.

3c.) The Final Judgment

…Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
This is the second death—the lake of fire.

15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life,
he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Berean Study Bible · Download

 

[Van]

A very simple concept, however not a concept found in the verses discussed ... that makes it a simple eisegetic concept rather than a simple exegetic concept.

Yessree Bob, a taint so post is a winner for Calvinists.

Here is the rest of the post that was (wait for it) edited out.
Verse John10:27 in the NASB says "My sheep" so the Father has given those who are "My sheep" to Christ, by putting them spiritually in Christ.

Therefore this effort to nullify scripture in the name of Calvinism has no basis in reality.

John 8:47
“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

Shall we edit out "of" here? Of course not. Once again those who are "of God" and "of My sheep" are those open and receptive to God's word.

Only in the edited out versions of John 10:26 is the concept "of My sheep" not found. And the fields white for harvest, not really as none of them can hear, understand, and believe according to the false doctrine being pushed. But the biblical view is the fields are white for harvest because some of the fallen are "of My sheep."

 

[Van]

Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.

Exegetic: adjective. Serving to explain: elucidative, explanative, explanatory, explicative, expositive, expository, hermeneutic, hermeneutical, illustrative, interpretative, interpretive.
Had to write that down; then, look em up.

As I have repeatedly shown, Calvinism is based on eisegesis (reading what is not there into the text) and the biblical doctrine that some of the lost are able to hear, understand and believe spiritual milk is based on exegesis. For example, Galatians 3:2, Romans 8:9 and 1 Corinthians 3:1-3

 

[atpollard]

Yessree Bob, a taint so post is a winner for Calvinists.

Appropriate when you say things that “taint so”.

Here is the rest of the post that was (wait for it) edited out.
Verse John10:27 in the NASB says "My sheep" so the Father has given those who are "My sheep" to Christ, by putting them spiritually in Christ.

That is not the part that was edited out.

You made the bold, but unsupported statement that ...

Shall we edit out "of" here? Of course not. Once again those who are "of God" and "of My sheep" are those open and receptive to God's word. Pretty simple concept, really.

... and I shortened the quote to “Pretty simple concept, really.”

As is clear to anyone that reads your paragraph above, the “simple concept” to which you referred and I disagreed was “Once again those who are ‘of God’ and ’of My sheep’ are those open and receptive to God's word.” John 10 does not say that the criteria for being “of God” or “of My sheep” is to be open and receptive. It clearly states the opposite. Those who are “of My sheep” were given by the Father and that is what makes them “of My sheep”. In contrast, the reason that the others do not believe is BECAUSE they are not “of My sheep” (given to Jesus by the Father).

You have presented a “pretty simple concept” that is the opposite of what Scripture says in those verses. That is the definition of eisegesis, the reading of outside preconceptions or ideas into the scripture where they are not found.

Therefore this effort to nullify scripture in the name of Calvinism has no basis in reality.

As I have just demonstrated by accurately quoting your original post, I did not “edit out” or “attempt to nullify” the statement “so the Father has given those who are ‘My sheep’ to Christ, by putting them spiritually in Christ” and I quite agree with that statement. We Calvinists call that Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace. What I “edited out” was your false claim that the sheep choose the Shepherd by being open and receptive ... which is the the only thing that has “no basis in reality”.

 

[JonC]

If they believed would they be "lost"?

 

[Dave G]

As I have just demonstrated by accurately quoting your original post, I did not “edit out” or “attempt to nullify” the statement “so the Father has given those who are ‘My sheep’ to Christ, by putting them spiritually in Christ” and I quite agree with that statement. We Calvinists call that Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace. What I “edited out” was your false claim that the sheep choose the Shepherd by being open and receptive ... which is the the only thing that has “no basis in reality”.

Give it up, Mr. Pollard.
He just doesn't see it.

 

[Alan Gross]

Give it up, Mr. Pollard.
He just doesn't see it.

What happen

As I have repeatedly shown, Calvinism is based on eisegesis (reading what is not there into the text) and the biblical doctrine that some of the lost are able to hear, understand and believe spiritual milk is based on exegesis. For example, Galatians 3:2, Romans 8:9 and 1 Corinthians 3:1-3

"who were dead, in trespasses and sins."

There is a First Death, prior to the Second Death, at The Final Judgment:

…Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
This is the second death—the lake of fire.

15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life,
he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Alan Gross]

Appropriate when you say things that “taint so”.


That is not the part that was edited out.

You made the bold, but unsupported statement that ...

... and I shortened the quote to “Pretty simple concept, really.”

As is clear to anyone that reads your paragraph above, the “simple concept” to which you referred and I disagreed was “Once again those who are ‘of God’ and ’of My sheep’ are those open and receptive to God's word.” John 10 does not say that the criteria for being “of God” or “of My sheep” is to be open and receptive. It clearly states the opposite. Those who are “of My sheep” were given by the Father and that is what makes them “of My sheep”. In contrast, the reason that the others do not believe is BECAUSE they are not “of My sheep” (given to Jesus by the Father).

You have presented a “pretty simple concept” that is the opposite of what Scripture says in those verses. That is the definition of eisegesis, the reading of outside preconceptions or ideas into the scripture where they are not found.



As I have just demonstrated by accurately quoting your original post, I did not “edit out” or “attempt to nullify” the statement “so the Father has given those who are ‘My sheep’ to Christ, by putting them spiritually in Christ” and I quite agree with that statement. We Calvinists call that Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace. What I “edited out” was your false claim that the sheep choose the Shepherd by being open and receptive ... which is the the only thing that has “no basis in reality”.

Establishing the 'grounds' for "salvation" on the supposition and bases of a preposition, is sand.

 

[Dave G]

I'll make one more try, @atpollard, maybe this might help:

When Jesus speaks of the fields white for harvest, He is speaking of the same group, open and receptive to God's word.

Amen.
Now, who are the ones that are open and receptive to God's word, Van?
Those that are "of" God:

" Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 ).

Jesus tells them why they didn't understand His speech...
Because they couldn't "hear" it.

They were "of" their father the devil ( not "of" God ) and the lusts of their father they would do.
He finishes by telling them that only those that are "of" God "hear" God's word.
So, they did not "hear" because they were not "of" God...

One does not become "of God" because they "hear" God's words, but rather, the other way around.
Here the Scriptures clearly state that one believes or does not believe God's word because one is either "of God" or "of" the devil.

The Lord Jesus in the other passage is indeed speaking of this same group, open and receptive to God's word.
They are the ones in the field that is white unto harvest, and they are the ones who are "of" God.


Good day to you, and may God bless you greatly in your studies, sir.

 

[JD731]

We all agree that man is inherently sinful and that he cannot redeem himself by any work.
We can all quote verses about the sinfulness of man.

I'm interested in the BEST verses you have that SAY [NOT JUST "IMPLY"] that a lost man cannot believe the gospel.

If you had to choose, say, the 3 clearest and most relevant verses to answer the question, what would they be?

Please, please, give the BEST and only 3.

Thanks.

Technically speaking, only one group of people can be lost, and that is the people of God. To be lost assumes that one has been the possession of God, if we are speaking of the scriptures.God has only ever claimed one people group in the OT.

Ex 4:22 - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Ex 3:10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.

Duet 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

This is pretty exclusive if you ask me.

Duet 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Above all nations
above all people

God turned his people over to shepherds and here is what they did to his flock.


My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Ez 34:1-2And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock. ...

Je 50:17Israel is a scattered sheep; the lions have driven him away: first the king of Assyria hath devoured him; and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his bones.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Paul wrote 13 letters to gentiles and only used the word "lost" in 2 Cor 4:3 in reference to Israel, his kinsmen. He never used the sheep metaphor in reference to the church, made up of saved Jews and gentiles, or of gentiles. He only used the word sheep one time in Rom 8 in reference to OT prophecy concerning Israel.

No lost gentiles. Gentiles are just plain ole sinners.

1 Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Jn 1o:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

They were sheep whether they came to him or not. Those who did come to him were given to him as his flock. He has a Judah flock first and then an Israel flock later. At some point they will be one flock.

Knowing these things are bound to help in the search for 3 verses.

 

[Dave G]

@George Antonios :
Therefore, breaking it down with God's word alone, I see this:


" Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." ( John 6:29 ). <--- It is a work of God to believe on His Son. First God works, then people believe.

" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 ) <----- No man can come to ( believe on ) Christ, except the Father draw them. First God draws, then they come to Christ.

" And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 ). <--- No man can come to ( believe on ) Christ except it were given to them. First God gives someone to Christ, then they come to Him.

" He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ). <----- Only those that are "of God" hear ( receive ) God's words. If someone does not, it's because they are not "of God". First one is "of God", then they hear His words. First one is "of" God, then they hear His words.

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" ( John 10:26-27 ) <---- Peopkle do not believe, because they are not "of" His sheep". Those that are His sheep, follow Him. First one is "of" His sheep, then they hear His voice.

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ) <------ People believe because they are ordained to eternal life. First one is ordained to eternal life, then they believe.

" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:29-30 ). <------ Only those that were foreknown and predestinated conformed to the image of His Son, will be called. First one is foreknown, then they are called.

The word order is consistent and unmistakable, sir.
First comes God's choice to act on a person, then comes their belief of His words.


I wish you well, and may God bless you richly in your studies.

 

[MB]

Christ draws all men to Him self.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
MB

 

[JD731]

@George Antonios :

" For whom he did foreknow,

I wish you well, and may God bless you richly in your studies.

Rom 11: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Is there any correlation between these two verses? Does God identify whom he foreknew and even when he knew them? Isn't this especially true in light of the fact that he introduced another people group into the discussion later in the chapter whom he never knew, before and whom he included now with the few believers of his foreknown group?

Is there context in scripture that must be honored. Does knowing this diminish God in your eyes because now you know that he did not know you before the foundation of the world and therefore did not choose you at that time?

 

[Van]

Appropriate when you say things that “taint so”.
SNIP

Smokescreed removed
"Of My sheep" refers to those open and receptive to God's word, and to edit out the "of" is alter the message to make it conform to Calvinist doctrine.

 

[Van]

What happen
"who were dead, in trespasses and sins."
There is a First Death, prior to the Second Death, at The Final Judgment:

…Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
This is the second death—the lake of fire.

15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life,
he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Some of those who were dead, in trespasses and sins, were made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5
The destiny of those who die while dead in sins is non-germane. The issue is the capacity to hear, understand and believe spiritual milk (including the gospel) while dead in sins before they physically die.

 

[Van]

I'll make one more try, @atpollard, maybe this might help:

Now, who are the ones that are open and receptive to God's word, Van?
Those that are "of" God:

47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 ).

Jesus tells them why they didn't understand His speech...
Because they couldn't "hear" it.

Those whose heart is hardened, cannot understand. But everyone is not hardened because the fields are white for harvest.

They were "of" their father the devil ( not "of" God ) and the lusts of their father they would do.
He finishes by telling them that only those that are "of" God "hear" God's word.
So, they did not "hear" because they were not "of" God...

All true and not in dispute

One does not become "of God" because they "hear" God's words, but rather, the other way around.
Here the Scriptures clearly state that one believes or does not believe God's word because one is either "of God" or "of" the devil.

Even if people hear and understand the gospel, therefore "of God and of My sheep" they do not all believe.

The Lord Jesus in the other passage is indeed speaking of this same group, open and receptive to God's word.
They are the ones in the field that is white unto harvest, and they are the ones who are "of" God.

And "of My sheep" the same group who are open and receptive to God's word.

 

[atpollard]

"Of My sheep" refers to those open and receptive to God's word, and to edit out the "of" is alter the message to make it conform to Calvinist doctrine.

Nonsense and poppycock.
I only WISH there were that many Calvinists that the right understanding of the Doctrines of Grace would drive the majority of translations over centuries.

You will have to talk to a Greek Scholar to find the true reason why some translators included the preposition and some did not, but I suspect it is a linguistic rather than theological issue.

"those open and receptive to God's word" are those that the FATHER has DRAWN to Jesus and the FATHER has GIVEN to Jesus and the FATHER has TAUGHT about Jesus and the FATHER has GIVEN a gift. You have the cart pushing the horse because it wants to get moving.