What 3 verses say that a lost man cannot believe the gospel?

[Dave G]

Those whose heart is hardened, cannot understand.

Amen, Van.
Scripture tells us whose hearts are hardened ( Ephesians 4:17-19 )...

All men ( before the Lord opens their hearts, see Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ), just as Romans 1:18-32 and Romans 3:10-18 clearly tell us.

Even if people hear and understand the gospel, therefore "of God and of My sheep" they do not all believe.

All to whom the Gospel is the power of God to ( Romans 1:16 ), do indeed hear God's words.

Those to whom the preaching of the cross is the power of God to, do indeed think that it is the opposite of foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
Everyone that has learned, "of the Father" comes to Christ:

"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." ( John 6:45 ).

Those who have not learned "of ( by or from ) the Father, do not come to Christ.


In addition, we're not talking about the facts of the Gospel, we're talking about God's words versus man's words.
According to the Scriptures, all who are His sheep hear His voice ( the words of God ).
All who are "of God" hear God's words, while those who are not "of God" do not ( John 8:47 ).

To me, it's rather black and white, Van.

There is no "in between" when it comes to who hears and who does not hear;
Only God's children ( Christ's sheep ), hear His words.

And "of My sheep" the same group who are open and receptive to God's word.

Again I agree.

His sheep are very receptive to His words...
Because they are "of God" and they are "of" ( "originating with", by or from ) His sheep.

He is their Shepherd, and He cares for them like no other.

 

[Van]

Nonsense and poppycock.
I only WISH there were that many Calvinists that the right understanding of the Doctrines of Grace would drive the majority of translations over centuries.

You will have to talk to a Greek Scholar to find the true reason why some translators included the preposition and some did not, but I suspect it is a linguistic rather than theological issue.

"those open and receptive to God's word" are those that the FATHER has DRAWN to Jesus and the FATHER has GIVEN to Jesus and the FATHER has TAUGHT about Jesus and the FATHER has GIVEN a gift. You have the cart pushing the horse because it wants to get moving.

On and on, one Calvinist doctrine is said to be true without any actual support from scripture, because some other bogus Calvinist doctrine requires it. Nonsense and poppycock.

There is no "linguistic" reason for the omission, since only the Calvinist leaning translations omit "of" in the phrase "of My sheep."
Compare the HCSB to the CSB. The later version put "of" back where it belongs according to the underlying text. Who deletes "of?" Why the good old NIV, ESV, and NLT Are they Calvinist favorites? Go figure.

Does any verse say "drawn by irresistible grace" to Jesus? Nope.
Since people are individually chosen for salvation through (or on the basis of) faith, all this "gift of faith" poppycock is nonsense.
Calvinists charge their opponents with whatever malfeasance they are committing, so when I am charged with getting the cart before the horse, the truth is Calvinism gets the cart before the horse.

 

[Van]

Amen, Van.
Scripture tells us whose hearts are hardened ( Ephesians 4:17-19 )...

All men ( before the Lord opens their hearts, see Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ), just as Romans 1:18-32 and Romans 3:10-18 clearly tell us.
SNIP

If all men have hardened hearts as a result of the fall, why did God need to harden the hearts of unbelieving Jews in Romans 11:7. If all men have hardened hearts as a result of the fall, the people of Matthew 23:13 would not have been entering the kingdom.

 

[Dave G]

On and on, one Calvinist doctrine is said to be true without any actual support from scripture,

We're not talking about John Calvin, Van.

We discussing Scripture...
What is actually written on the pages.

True doctrine is developed off God's word, in context and based on what it clearly says.

Does any verse say "drawn by irresistible grace" to Jesus? Nope.

That's because it's based on the understanding of many passages when taken together, Van.

These is no one "verse" that states what you are looking for.
In other words, there is no one all-encompassing "proof text" that says, "drawn by irresistible grace" and in those exact words.

But as I see it, there are several that get very close.

Calvinists charge their opponents with whatever malfeasance they are committing, so when I am charged with getting the cart before the horse, the truth is Calvinism gets the cart before the horse.

Please take a look at my post # 114 and let me know, according to the words of God as they are laid out, where you think I got it wrong, OK?
We can go line by line if you like, which I think would be helpful for everyone reading this thread.

 

[Dave G]

If all men have hardened hearts as a result of the fall, the people of Matthew 23:13 would not have been entering the kingdom.

The reason they were entering in, was because they were born again, Van.
Remember?

" Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." ( John 3:3 ).
" Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." ( John 3:5 ).

One of the main subjects about John 3 is about being born again.
Only those who are born again ( born of the Spirit ) will be saved.

 

[Van]

Please take a look at my post # 114 and let me know, according to the words of God as they are laid out, where you think I got it wrong, OK?
We can go line by line if you like, which I think would be helpful for everyone reading this thread.

Post #114 was not even addressed to me.
But oh well:
John 6:29 says the work God requires of the lost is to believe in Him who He has sent. (Believe in Christ!)

There is no verse taken individually or collectively with other verses that indicate the fallen are unable to understand and respond to spiritual milk. None, nada, zip.

To claim Calvinism's false doctrines are supported by an unreferenced collection is poppycock and nonsense.

 

[Dave G]

Post #114 was not even addressed to me.
But oh well:
John 6:29 says the work God requires of the lost is to believe in Him who He has sent. (Believe in Christ!)

There is no verse taken individually or collectively with other verses that indicate the fallen are unable to understand and respond to spiritual milk. None, nada, zip.

To claim Calvinism's false doctrines are supported by an unreferenced collection is poppycock and nonsense.

Regrettably,
I disagree with what is said here ( and especially with the bolded text ).

To me John 6:29 says that is because of God's work that a person believes.
However, I do understand why you see it the way that you do.

On a side note, spiritual milk is for spiritual babes ( see 1 Corinthians 3:1-9 )...
One is not a babe in Christ until they are born again;
Wouldn't you agree?


That said, please address the next verse.

 

[Van]

Regrettably,
I disagree with what is said here ( and especially with the bolded text ).

To me John 6:29 says that is because of God's work that a person believes.
However, I do understand why you see it the way that you do.

On a side note, spiritual milk is for spiritual babes ( see 1 Corinthians 3:1-9 )...
One is not a babe in Christ until they are born again;
Wouldn't you agree?

That said, please address the next verse.

No need to move on, why not stick with the verse I put forth, and the one you claim did not say spiritual milk was for "men of flesh."

In John 6:28 the people ask Jesus what must "we do" to obtain "the works of God." In other words, what must we do to accomplish what God requires. So the question is what do people do, not what God does. And of course the answer (John 6:29) is "God requires that you believe in the One He sent.

So once again we have a vague phrase "the work of God" which Calvinism redefines to mean the work God does. Never mind it flies in the face of context, logical necessity and sound hermeneutics.

As far as 1 Corinthians 3:1 not one Calvinist as presented why Paul said he spoke to new Christs "as to men of flesh." They ignore the question and endlessly point out he spoke to indwelt babes. Folks do not hold your breath for a rational answer.

 

[Dave G]

No need to move on, why not stick with the verse I put forth, and the one you claim did not say spiritual milk was for "men of flesh."

But I'm still curious about the others, Van, if you're willing.
We can come back if you wish.

 

[Dave G]

So once again we have a vague phrase "the work of God" which Calvinism redefines to mean the work God does.

I disagree, sir.
"Calvinism" doesn't attempt to redefine it.

That's what I see and what occurs to me privately when I read it.
I didn't get it out of a systematic theology book.

Never mind it flies in the face of context, logical necessity and sound hermeneutics.

What are "hermeneutics", and why do we as believers need them?

Is there a manual somewhere that says that we, as God's children, need something extra-biblical in order to rightly divide the word of truth?
I know of nothing in the Bible that tells me I need such a thing.

rather, I know that we trust the Lord for everything, and that He commands us to not only desire the sincere milk of the word for our spiritual growth ( 1 Peter 2:2 ), but that we also should study so that we can rightly divide it ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

 

[Van]

I disagree, sir.
"Calvinism" doesn't attempt to redefine it.

That's what I see and what occurs to me privately when I read it.
I didn't get it out of a systematic theology book.

What are "hermeneutics", and why do we as believers need them?

Is there a manual somewhere that says that we, as God's children, need something extra-biblical in order to rightly divide the word of truth?
I know of nothing in the Bible that tells me I need such a thing.

rather, I know that we trust the Lord for everything, and that He commands us to not only desire the sincere milk of the word for our spiritual growth ( 1 Peter 2:2 ), but that we also should study so that we can rightly divide it ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

I have explained why John 6:29 refers to the work God requires of us. You have said "taint so."

As for giving you advice, how about bible students need a heart not hardened by the practice of deceitfulness.

 

[Alan Gross]

I have explained why John 6:29 refers to the work God requires of us. You have said "taint so."

As for giving you advice, how about bible students need a heart not hardened by the practice of deceitfulness.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9

Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 7:21
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Mark 7:22
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

Romans 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 7:11
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Ephesians 4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

 

[Alan Gross]

His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 3

Now as election is signified by the writing of names in the book of life,
non-election is expressed by not writing the names of some there;

and if those whose names are written there, are the elect,
then those whose names are not written these, but are left out, must be non-elect:

to which may be added, that our Lord says of these persons,

1.) "Ye are not of my sheep", and gives this as a reason why they believed not in him, #John 10:26.

2.) But the goats he will place on his left hand,
pass sentence of condemnation on them,
and send them into everlasting punishment, #Matthew 25:33,41,46.

2a.) 33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

2b.) 41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels;

2c.) 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.



Moreover, from the effects of election not having place in some persons,
it may be concluded, that there are such who are non-elect.

The effectual calling is a certain fruit and effect of election;
"Whom he did predestinate, them he also called", #Ro 8:30 not only externally, but internally, with an holy and heavenly calling, to grace here, and glory hereafter.


3.) But are all called in this manner?

No; there are some who have not so much as the outward call by the ministry of the word, have not the external means of grace; but as they sin without law, perish without it, #Ro 10:14 2:12.

3a.) 10:14 How, then, shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

3b.) 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law; and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

 

[Alan Gross]

The God of The Bible is The One and Only, True and Living, God of The Universe.

adapted from: His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 3

Those who are chosen, are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ;
they are chosen to holiness, and through sanctification of the Spirit.

But are all made like to Christ, and conformed to his image?
do not many bear the image of Satan, imitate him, and do his lusts?
are all men made holy, or have they the sanctification of the Spirit?

Whom God predestinates he justifies, by the righteousness of his Son.

1.) But are all men justified?

No; for though he justifies some of all sorts and nations;
as the circumcised Jews by faith, and the uncircumcised Gentiles through faith, yet not every individual;

yea, there is a world that will be condemned, and consequently not predestinated to life, #1Co 11:32.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world


They that are chosen, are predestinated to the adoption of children, and enjoy both the grace and inheritance of children.

2.) But are all children and heirs? is there not such a distinction among men, as children of God, and children of the devil; between whom there is, and will be, an eternal difference? #1Jo 3:10

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

and therefore there must be an election, and a non-election among them.


Moreover, whom God has predestinated, or chosen to life and happiness, these he glorifies, #Ro 8:30 they obtain the glory of Christ, which his Father has given him for them, and to which they are chosen and called, #Joh 17:22 2Th 2:13,14.


3.) But are all glorified? do not some go into perdition, even into everlasting punishment? and therefore must be considered as non-elect, #Re 17:8 Mt 25:46.

3a.) Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition; and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is

3b.) Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Van]

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9

Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 7:21
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Mark 7:22
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

Romans 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 7:11
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Ephesians 4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

And I though we would be allowed to focus on one verse at a time. But no, yet another Calvinist copy and pastes a boat load of scripture, none of which supports the TULI of Calvinism in the slightest.

Does Jeremiah 17:9 say a wicked heart cannot hear and understand and respond to the gospel? Nope, but Calvinism reads their doctrine into that text.

Matthew 13:15 is yet another verse that actually supports that the lost can hear and be healed, that is why Jesus spoke in parables. Just read it folks.

Mark 2:17 indicates the lost can hear the call of Christ, so more actual support for limited spiritual ability.

Do Mark 7:21-22 say the lost cannot hear, understand and be healed? Nope, bu Calvinism reads their doctrine into the texts

Romans 1:21 says the lost have spiritual ability because they know of God by what He has made, so once again limited spiritual ability is taught by the passage cited.

Romans 7:11 points out that although the lost are dead in their sins and trespasses, some become aware because of the Law, and thus so to speak they become dead in their own estimation. But does this say the lost, being spiritually dead, cannot hear, understand and be healed. Nope, so again Calvinism reads this into the text.

Ephesians 4:22 says the lost are being corrupted by the lusts of receipt. Does this say the corrupted lost cannot hear, understand an be healed? Nope so yet again Calvinism reads this into the text.

There is no actual support anywhere in scripture for the TULI of Calvinism.

 

[Alan Gross]

1.) John 1:11 He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.

With reference to the OP, pt.b:

"...a lost man cannot believe the gospel?"

*"To all which may be added, that those that are given to Christ,
which is but another phrase for being chosen in him;

these, he says, shall come to him, and he will in no wise cast them out;

yea, that they are his sheep, whom he must bring to his Father,
to himself, to his fold, to grace and glory, #Joh 6:37 10:16.

2.) But are there not some whom Christ will drive away from him, and to then, say, "Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire", #Mt 7:23 25:41.

25:41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels;

3.) Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.


"All this put together (along with previous sighted postings)
most clearly and fully proves,
that there are some who are not chosen of God, but rejected by him."



*adapted from His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 3

 

[Alan Gross]

And I though we would be allowed to focus on one verse at a time. But no, yet another Calvinist copy and pastes a boat load of scripture, none of which supports the TULI of Calvinism in the slightest.

Does Jeremiah 17:9 say a wicked heart cannot hear and understand and respond to the gospel? Nope, but Calvinism reads their doctrine into that text.

Matthew 13:15 is yet another verse that actually supports that the lost can hear and be healed, that is why Jesus spoke in parables. Just read it folks.

Mark 2:17 indicates the lost can hear the call of Christ, so more actual support for limited spiritual ability.

Do Mark 7:21-22 say the lost cannot hear, understand and be healed? Nope, bu Calvinism reads their doctrine into the texts

Romans 1:21 says the lost have spiritual ability because they know of God by what He has made, so once again limited spiritual ability is taught by the passage cited.

Romans 7:11 points out that although the lost are dead in their sins and trespasses, some become aware because of the Law, and thus so to speak they become dead in their own estimation. But does this say the lost, being spiritually dead, cannot hear, understand and be healed. Nope, so again Calvinism reads this into the text.

Ephesians 4:22 says the lost are being corrupted by the lusts of receipt. Does this say the corrupted lost cannot hear, understand an be healed? Nope so yet again Calvinism reads this into the text.

There is no actual support anywhere in scripture for the TULI of Calvinism.

God Wrote a Book to Mankind THEY ARE ALLOWED TO READ.

If we go by you "RULES", backwards and forwards, in and out, plus and minus, dismis at will, and just GO WILLY NILLY, Then JOHN CALVIN WROTE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Believe The BOOK.

 

[Van]

God Wrote a Book to Mankind THEY ARE ALLOWED TO READ.
If we go by you "RULES", backwards and forwards, in and out, plus and minus, dismiss at will, and just GO WILLY NILLY, Then JOHN CALVIN WROTE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Believe The BOOK.

Yet another deep and thoughtful "taint so" post.

There is no actual support for Calvinism anywhere in scripture but many verses demonstrate it is unbiblical doctrine such as Matthew 13:15 and Romans 1:21.

 

[Alan Gross]

Yet another deep and thoughtful "taint so" post.

There is no actual support for Calvinism anywhere in scripture but many verses demonstrate it is unbiblical doctrine such as Matthew 13:15 and Romans 1:21.

Are you SURE?

"The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately wicked:
who can know it?"
Jeremiah 17:9

 

[37818]

Yet another deep and thoughtful "taint so" post.

There is no actual support for Calvinism anywhere in scripture but many verses demonstrate it is unbiblical doctrine such as Matthew 13:15 and Romans 1:21.

Calvinists believe those very scriptures. Your argument does not explain.