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What are some verses you think can be improved in the ESV?

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reformed_baptist

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Van said:
RB, the clause "by the Spirit" does not alter the fact the verse says we are chosen for salvation (by the Spirit) through faith in the truth.
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Ah, that is because you are assuming the clause 'by the spirit' modifies the wrong clause - as demonstrated by your oversight of it. You see the verse does not say 'anything about being chosen through faith, is talks about being chosen through the setting aside to God (sanctification) of the Spirit and belief in the truth - look again at the text.

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth (2Th 2:13 NKJ)

The text affirms that those Paul is writing to were:

1) Chosen from the beginning by God
2) Chosen to salvation
3) That comes through:
a) Sanctification by the spirit
b) Belief in the truth

I am sorry, but in my opinion, to suggest that the verse implies 'conditional election' is to rip it apart and put it back together according to ones own traditions. Consider that both (a) and (b) are works of God - neither originate in man. So, how can this verse be speaking of 'conditional election'?

By adding a verb,
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What verb is 'added'?

I can see where a noun has been translated as a verb, but I cannot see the addition of a verb in the ESV
translation.

I would be interested in seeing your research in regards to the practice of translating nouns into verbs (and vice versa) in your preferred translation. The reality is that as one moves for the original language into the 'go to' language it is sometimes not simply legitimate, but actually desirable to change which part of speech a specific word belongs in.

it allows folks to say we were saved through faith in the truth, rather than chosen through faith in the truth.
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No it doesn't - at least it doesn't if one reads every clause and properly parses the sentence!

This grammatical transformation is thus agenda driven, to hide the biblical truth of our conditional election.
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Or maybe your rejection of it is agenda driven to maintain your belief in conditional election?

I am interested in knowing if anyone has ever asked the compilers of the ESV why they chose to translate this verse int he way that they did - it is easy it attribute motives to people who are not here to defend themselves, but is that fair?

To be honest, I don't really care what one thinks of a certain translation, that is neither here not there, what I do care about is the speed and willingness of many to attribute base motivations to their brothers and sisters in Christ based upon the fact that the person doesn't like what is being said.
 
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Van

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LOL RB, bing chosen through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth plainly says our election for salvation was conditional.

No need to rewrite scripture to make it fit with man-made doctrine.
 
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Yeshua1

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Rippon said:
Y-1, you are being hypocritical. Since the 1984 NIV is your standard for I.L. then you need to aim your squirt gun at the ESV and HCSB for being dupes of a feminist conspiracy. And now with the CSB you need to get a water hose because it sometimes uses more inclusive language than the current NIV.
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I am not saying that they were dupes, but that they were concerned about the scriptures speaking to culture today that would see them as being too masculine in focus, but problem is that there is a group in Evangelicalism to supports that there is no male headship in home/church!

So they went too far to address this concern is my point!
the 1984 Niv would be as far as should have gone...
 
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Yeshua1

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Rippon said:
When you make such falsehoods on a regular basis, do you ever stop to think that it reflects badly on your testimony?
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You then deny that some versions do seem to wantto water down male as leadership in homes/church then?
 
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Yeshua1

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reformed_baptist said:
The translators had license in the greek to make those translations - including Gen 3:16 is that what you are saying?
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Thank you for that clarification, as yes, at times threr would not be just one way to translate a verse, word...That there would be acceptable options in doing such...
 
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Rippon

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Yeshua1 said:
I am not saying that they were dupes, but that they were concerned about the scriptures speaking to culture today that would see them as being too masculine in focus, but problem is that there is a group in Evangelicalism to supports that there is no male headship in home/church!
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Once again, you are not being clear. Do you think that the translators of the ESV and HCSB were being the pawns of a feminist mindset?
So they went too far to address this concern is my point!
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So the translators of those two versions went too far in your estimation, with respect to the use of inclusive language?
 
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Rippon

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Yeshua1 said:
You then deny that some versions do seem to wantto water down male as leadership in homes/church then?
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Do not dodge, waffle, and avoid what I have addressed. You specifically have condemned the NIV and the TNIV translators repeatedly over the years. You have made baseless charges. It has to stop. Christians do not do those things.

The watering-down charge against the NIV is a lie, plain and simple.
 
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Van

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Several ESV verses have been specifically identified where the ESV botched the translation. Many times the NRSV corrected the underlying error of the RSV, but the ESV simply reproduced the error.
 
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Rippon

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There are a number of places in which the ESV uses unnatural English.

Snippets follow from the book of Psalms.

10:4
In the pride of his face
NIV : In his pride

11:6
portion of their cup (same as NRSV,NKJV etc.)
NIV : will be their lot

12:2
double heart (similar to NRSV)
NIV : harbor deception in their hearts

37:1
Fret not yourself because of evil-doers, and be not envious of wrongdoers.
NRSV : Do not fret because of evildoers, nor be envois of wrongdoers.

69:23
make their loins tremble continually (same as NRSV)
NIV : their backs bent forever (WEB is similar)

94:9
planted the ear (same as NRSV, NKJV etc.)
NIV : fashioned the ear
 
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Yeshua1

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Rippon said:
Do not dodge, waffle, and avoid what I have addressed. You specifically have condemned the NIV and the TNIV translators repeatedly over the years. You have made baseless charges. It has to stop. Christians do not do those things.

The watering-down charge against the NIV is a lie, plain and simple.
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There over use of inclusive renderings was not demanded by the texts themselves! The 1984 had about the right amount
 
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Yeshua1

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Rippon said:
Once again, you are not being clear. Do you think that the translators of the ESV and HCSB were being the pawns of a feminist mindset?

So the translators of those two versions went too far in your estimation, with respect to the use of inclusive language?
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Yes
 
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Rippon

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Yeshua1 said:
Not pawns, but went too far in what they did in their revisions!
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Again, one of your greatest weaknesses is not being specific. You lob charges without referencing anything.

Cite verses in the ESV and HCSB where these versions go too far in their inclusive language.

If you refuse to do so, then go away quietly.
 
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Rippon

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Snips of unnatural language in the ESV compared with the NIV.

Matthew 7:27
and great was the fall of it
NIV : and it fell with a great crash

Matthew 23:32
Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers
NIV : Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
 
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