WHAT ARE THE BASIC PROBLEMS IN LORDSHIP SALVATION?

[Steven_15]

The "If Jesus is not Lord over all, then He is lord over none" thing!

Read the OP. This isn't a place for lordship Salvationists. Keep your off this thread.

 

[Steven_15]

Matthew 7:21-23.

You are right.

Mathew 7:21: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven".

What is the Father's will? John 6:28: "They said therefore to him, "What must we do, that we may work the works of God?"
6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.""

Believing Christ's atonement to save by faith alone is the Father's will.

The lordship salvationists will be rejected according to the statement of Jesus because they trust in their self righteousness.

 

[Steven_15]

He is both Lord and Christ. Acts of the Apostles 2:36. Persons are not saved by trusting in His Lordship and works, Matthew 7:22. But in Him being the Christ, 1 John 5:1.

True. The lordship Salvationists use the moral law to create transformation in christians but Bible calls it flesh not spiritual.

Lordship salvation theory is being dismantled by faith in Christ's atonement.

Thanks for your contribution.

 

[Steven_15]

Agreed. The Bible does not say not to call out sin. It says to get the board out of your eye before you worry about the speck in the neighbors eye. As far as I know, you dont have a board in your eye.

Jesus said the moral law is to be perfect as the Father is perfect. But the lordship Salvationists lower the bar of moral law when it comes to getting the board out of their eye.

Further, the Lordship salvationists judge other christians for not stopping sinning. But yet they justify their blatant continuing to sin by refusing to submit to God's command in Mathew 5:48.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As I look at the matter, I see LS as a reaction to the Finneyesque Revivalism that took hold of Evangelicalism in the mid 20th century. To my mind, LS's main problem is it seems to require the outlook of a fairly mature Believer of a newly born one.

 

[Steven_15]

As I look at the matter, I see LS as a reaction to the Finneyesque Revivalism that took hold of Evangelicalism in the mid 20th century. To my mind, LS's main problem is it seems to require the outlook of a fairly mature Believer of a newly born one.

Requiring the outlook of a fairly mature Believer of a newly born one by using the moral law to produce the new outlook?

One of the basic confusions in Lordship salvation is they have forsaken grace which rules (Romans 5:21) a christian and have brought in the moral law once again, in order to produce transformation among christians. This is what the unsaved world at large does. And that method is flesh and not spiritual. And it indeed produces a phoney transformation as it's not not based on faith in His grace!!

The lordship Salvationists are ignorant faith in His grace not only saves but also sanctifies.

 

[Reynolds]

As I look at the matter, I see LS as a reaction to the Finneyesque Revivalism that took hold of Evangelicalism in the mid 20th century. To my mind, LS's main problem is it seems to require the outlook of a fairly mature Believer of a newly born one.

I mostly agree, but L.S. does not require one to become an instantly mature believer. It requires one to submit to the Lordship of Christ. The best example I know of is a man who cussed like a sailor, drank, used drugs, cheated on his wife, etc. got saved. He immediately quit drugs, and cheating on His wife. He drank for a while and quit that. He still cussed for several years and then suddenly quit that. His heart was right. He was submitted. He quit sinning as soon as he became convicted about the sin. He was not instantly convicted of all his different sins the moment he got saved.

 

[Steven_15]

I mostly agree, but L.S. does not require one to become an instantly mature believer. It requires one to submit to the Lordship of Christ. The best example I know of is a man who cussed like a sailor, drank, used drugs, cheated on his wife, etc. got saved. He immediately quit drugs, and cheating on His wife. He drank for a while and quit that. He still cussed for several years and then suddenly quit that. His heart was right. He was submitted. He quit sinning as soon as he became convicted about the sin. He was not instantly convicted of all his different sins the moment he got saved.

His heart was right

If you use the moral law follow it according to the standard given in Mathew 5:48. Don't dilute it to get a false sense of satisfaction. No one's heart can be right before God according to the moral law unless one obeys Mathew 5:48.

One's heart can be right before God only through faith in His grace given through Christ's atonement.

 

[Reynolds]

If you use the moral law follow it according to the standard given in Mathew 5:48. Don't dilute it to get a false sense of satisfaction. No one's heart can be right before God according to the moral law unless one obeys Mathew 5:48.

One's heart can be right before God only through faith in His grace given through Christ's atonement.

The moral law as summed up by Jesus, Love God with all your might and love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[Van]

What are the unbiblical theological inconsistencies in Lordship Salvation (LS)?

Promoters of LS tend to look at other's faults while hiding their own sins in view God's command in Mathew 5:48 and accusing/judging other Christians in the name of church discipline.

They tend to excuse their own sins as "unknown".

They seem to believe that it is their sin confessions which enable them to have fellowship with God. Thus they deny the faith in grace given through Christ's atonement which enables them to fellowship with God!

You may post your opinions & the hardships you had faced with the legalists. Lordship Salvationists need not answer.

There are those who do not believe salvation is based on God alone choosing to credit a lost person's faith as righteousness or not. But assuming the vast majority of believers accept Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24, then the question becomes our understanding of trusting fully in Christ. We know from Matthew 13 that a superficial trust (Soil #2) or trusting in Christ along with trusting in worldly treasures such as relationships (Soil #3) is insufficient faith. As others have said, trusting in Christ as both Savior and Lord is necessary for salvation. Unless a person makes a full commitment to Christ as Lord (or boss and governor) the faith is lacking. Now God knows our hearts and so if our commitment is total, then He credits our faith and places us into Christ spiritually.

OTOH, a group understands scripture differently, saying all a person must do is believe a set of facts about Christ and they are "automatically" "in Christ" and saved eternally, even though they show no external signs of a commitment to Christ. This view is called "Easy Believeism."

So the bottom line is ":Lordship Salvation" simply recognizes that for God to credit our faith as righteousness, we must go "all in" for Christ. It is the correct view even though many of its proponents are Calvinists.

 

[Dave G]

As others have said, trusting in Christ as both Savior and Lord is necessary for salvation. Unless a person makes a full commitment to Christ as Lord (or boss and governor) the faith is lacking.

I agree, Van.

Now God knows our hearts and so if our commitment is total, then He credits our faith and places us into Christ spiritually.

Van,
I see that for God to credit the believer's faith as righteousness is Biblical per Romans 4.

But for the believer to be placed into Christ because of that faith, is relying on what the man does to place them into Christ...
Not entirely on what God did for them.
This renders faith into a work of men that God then relies on in order to decide who to save, and not a gift given by God ( Ephesians 2:8 ) authored and finished by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ) which becomes the evidence of His work ( Hebrews 11:1 ) in a person.

As in other threads, if faith is the means, then man has a leg to potentially stand on and boast in on Judgment Day...
Rather than strictly on the grace and mercy of God through Jesus Christ.

Also as in other threads where this was brought up, assigning faith as the means of salvation violates Romans 11:5-6.
It mixes man's efforts and God's efforts, and causes God to respect that person based on what they have done.

Whether or not you personally agree, this is the conclusion of the "credited faith places the believer into Christ" argument.
It describes man as entering into a cooperative effort with God in order to merit salvation, plain and simple.

But we know from other Scriptures that eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), and nowhere is it ever stated as a reward.

Finally,
I'm sorry that you do not agree with this conclusion, but that it was I firmly believe that it boils down to.
Simply stand back, "crunch the numbers" and look at it from a legal standpoint...

"Lordship salvation" is akin to making a person's performance into a work in order to gain the favor of God, or to maintain that favor.
Assigning the credit for salvation to a person's faith, and not assigning everything to God ( including faith ), places God at the mercy of men in order to decide who to save.


To me, we're right back to God foreseeing a person's faith and then making His choice to save them based on that, aren't we?

 

[Noah Hirsch]

H

What are the unbiblical theological inconsistencies in Lordship Salvation (LS)?

Promoters of LS tend to look at other's faults while hiding their own sins in view God's command in Mathew 5:48 and accusing/judging other christians in the name of church discipline.

They tend to excuse their own sins as "unknown".

They seem to believe that it is their sin confessions which enable them to have fellowship with God. Thus they deny the faith in grace given through Christ's atonement which enables them to fellowship with God!

You may post your opinions & the hardships you had faced with the legalists. Lordship Salvationists need not answer.

How about Kingship salvationists?

“We believe that Repentance and Faith are sacred duties, and also inseparable graces, wrought in our souls by the regenerating Spirit of God; whereby being deeply convinced of our guilt, danger, and helplessness, and of the way of salvation by Christ, we turn to God with unfeigned contrition, confession, and supplication for mercy; at the same time heartily receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our Prophet, Priest, and King, and relying on him alone as the only and all-sufficient Saviour.” (New Hampshire Confession of Faith (1833, 8: Of Repentance and Life)

I do not pretend to defend all that such as are called “Lordship salvationist” believe, teach, or practice. What I do intent to do is show that it is not proper to say that all who are so called “Lordship salvationists” are legalists, though there be some variants of Lordship salvationists who are legalists.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus said the moral law is to be perfect as the Father is perfect. But the lordship Salvationists lower the bar of moral law when it comes to getting the board out of their eye.

Further, the Lordship salvationists judge other christians for not stopping sinning. But yet they justify their blatant continuing to sin by refusing to submit to God's command in Mathew 5:48.

Jesus was In CONTEXT telling us to rightly judge, not thst God expects and demands us to be morally perfect, if that was the case, we are all still lost in our sins!

 

[Yeshua1]

As I look at the matter, I see LS as a reaction to the Finneyesque Revivalism that took hold of Evangelicalism in the mid 20th century. To my mind, LS's main problem is it seems to require the outlook of a fairly mature Believer of a newly born one.

Yes, as those holding to it want to get away from just saying that one had an alter call years ago, or came forward at a Billy graham Crusade and trusting that even to save us, despite having no real evidence of a changed life since then!

 

[Yeshua1]

True. The lordship Salvationists use the moral law to create transformation in christians but Bible calls it flesh not spiritual.

Lordship salvation theory is being dismantled by faith in Christ's atonement.

Thanks for your contribution.

LS holds to Christ atonement in full!

 

[Yeshua1]

Read the OP. This isn't a place for lordship Salvationists. Keep your off this thread.

I hold to more of grace position actually!

 

[Yeshua1]

Requiring the outlook of a fairly mature Believer of a newly born one by using the moral law to produce the new outlook?

One of the basic confusions in Lordship salvation is they have forsaken grace which rules (Romans 5:21) a christian and have brought in the moral law once again, in order to produce transformation among christians. This is what the unsaved world at large does. And that method is flesh and not spiritual. And it indeed produces a phoney transformation as it's not not based on faith in His grace!!

The lordship Salvationists are ignorant faith in His grace not only saves but also sanctifies.

I think that you are trying to argue against their theology, without really knowing it!

 

[Yeshua1]

I mostly agree, but L.S. does not require one to become an instantly mature believer. It requires one to submit to the Lordship of Christ. The best example I know of is a man who cussed like a sailor, drank, used drugs, cheated on his wife, etc. got saved. He immediately quit drugs, and cheating on His wife. He drank for a while and quit that. He still cussed for several years and then suddenly quit that. His heart was right. He was submitted. He quit sinning as soon as he became convicted about the sin. He was not instantly convicted of all his different sins the moment he got saved.

They do seem though to be saying that all aspects of your life must be right with God to really had been saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

If you use the moral law follow it according to the standard given in Mathew 5:48. Don't dilute it to get a false sense of satisfaction. No one's heart can be right before God according to the moral law unless one obeys Mathew 5:48.

One's heart can be right before God only through faith in His grace given through Christ's atonement.

We can rightly judge without being morally perfect!

 

[Yeshua1]

There are those who do not believe salvation is based on God alone choosing to credit a lost person's faith as righteousness or not. But assuming the vast majority of believers accept Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24, then the question becomes our understanding of trusting fully in Christ. We know from Matthew 13 that a superficial trust (Soil #2) or trusting in Christ along with trusting in worldly treasures such as relationships (Soil #3) is insufficient faith. As others have said, trusting in Christ as both Savior and Lord is necessary for salvation. Unless a person makes a full commitment to Christ as Lord (or boss and governor) the faith is lacking. Now God knows our hearts and so if our commitment is total, then He credits our faith and places us into Christ spiritually.

OTOH, a group understands scripture differently, saying all a person must do is believe a set of facts about Christ and they are "automatically" "in Christ" and saved eternally, even though they show no external signs of a commitment to Christ. This view is called "Easy Believeism."

So the bottom line is ":Lordship Salvation" simply recognizes that for God to credit our faith as righteousness, we must go "all in" for Christ. It is the correct view even though many of its proponents are Calvinists.

God already places Jesus as Lord over all saved, so still be gradual changes to Lordship!