What are the Main differences between reformed Baptists and other Baptists then?

[Yeshua1]

Hi Yeshua1, you have posted 3 times and failed to address the topic. What do you say the differences are.

In response to your deflection posts:

1)Not many non Reformed Baptists hold to Limited Atonement as defined by Calvinism. The prevailing view among non Reformed Baptists. is that "Christ died as a ransom for all."

2) Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation from God's wrath, not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3) Yes, every translation that says "compel" is in error according to Dr. Wallace and the BDAG. I did find three translations that use "urge" the NET, NLT, and God's Word. at Luke 14:23

1) That wouldd indeed be true of some, as being free will salvation baptists, that would fit into their scripture grid

2) Which one is jesus though, the Propitiation or the means of? And so Jesus did die in the place of all lost sinners that will be in hell?

3 Interesting that those translation that you are falling back upon are more DE, what does your beloved Nasb render it as being?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hi Martin, I provided the verse, and the word meaning. You on the other hand, rewrote the word (propitiation) into propitiated. Not how it reads. Please address the fact that the Greek word translated as propitiation refers to the means of salvation from God's wrath.

Do you mean this?

"Hilasmos This word occurs two times, once in 1 John 2:2 and one in 1 John 4:10. It means “an appeasement, a satisfaction, or a propitiation.” It may also refer to the means of propitiation or satisfaction. Jesus Christ is the means and only means of satisfying God’s holiness and appeasing His holy wrath."

What is this? Is it purporting to be a quote? You have not attributed it. However, whomever it's from, He does not say that Jesus is the 'means of salvation,'. does he? But he's wrong in any case. I prefer to believe John Himself: 'And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Saviour of the world' (1 John 4:14).

I want a Bible text from you stating that Jesus is the 'means of salvation,' and you won't find one because there isn't one.
How many texts would you like stating that the Lord Jesus is the Saviour?

IMPORTANT NOTE I am not arguing about angels and pinheads here. There is a very serious point about all this. If you make the Lord Jesus merely the means of salvation, you have to make God the Saviour who uses the means. Therefore you are making the Son inferior to the Father, and you will end up with Unitarianism. Jesus Christ is the Saviour equally with the Father.

 

[Van]

I am relying on the Word of God, 1 John 2:2. A savior is the means of salvation. I explained the meaning of the word translated propitiation in 1 John 2:2, and supported it with a quote.

Here is quote from Vines: " It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1 John 2:2 and 4:10,
signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His death, is the personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided."

The fact that you say you did not know Jesus is the means of our salvation speaks volumes. Once more, 1 John 2:2 says Christ is the propitiation (or means of salvation) not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world, all mankind.

You could also look at the New Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, page 301, "b. The means of appeasing, a propitiation"

Last one:

Taken as a whole, the doctrine of propitiation as revealed in these New Testament references seems fully to sustain the orthodox concept that Christ in His death on the cross through the shedding of His blood and the sacrifice of His life constituted a satisfaction of divine justice which God accepts on behalf of the sinner making possible the manifestation of His love toward men and bestowal of righteousness through justification by faith.

"Making possible," i.e. providing the means. .

I see I overlooked the absurd claim that Christ being the propitiation, the means of salvation, makes Him not the Savior. No Christ saves us from the righteous wrath of God the Father. Note that after dying on the cross, and becoming the propitiation or means of salvation, He arose and now sits at the right hand of the Father. Martin's assertion is simply hogwash.

 

[Van]

1) That would indeed be true of some, as being free will salvation baptists, that would fit into their scripture grid

The prevailing view among non Reformed Baptists. is that "Christ died as a ransom for all."

2) Which one is jesus though, the Propitiation or the means of? And so Jesus did die in the place of all lost sinners that will be in hell?

Jesus = Propitiation = Means of salvation from God's righteous wrath.

3 Interesting that those translation that you are falling back upon are more DE, what does your beloved Nasb render it as being?

All translations contain errors, including the NASB95. It mistranslates monogenes as begotten, and has compel where it should have urge in Luke 14:23.

Still waiting for you to post what you believe are the main differences. How about Reformed Baptists believe in Unconditional Election, whereas non Confessional Baptists believe in Election through faith in the truth. Can you add to our list?

 

[Yeshua1]

The prevailing view among non Reformed Baptists. is that "Christ died as a ransom for all."

Jesus = Propitiation = Means of salvation from God's righteous wrath.

All translations contain errors, including the NASB95. It mistranslates monogenes as begotten, and has compel where it should have urge in Luke 14:23.

Still waiting for you to post what you believe are the main differences. How about Reformed Baptists believe in Unconditional Election, whereas non Confessional Baptists believe in Election through faith in the truth. Can you add to our list?

Trust me Van, there are many non reformed Calvinist Baptist who also disagree with your theology!

 

[Van]

Yet another false claim, non Reformed Baptists are mostly dispy and believe Christ died as a ransom for all.
Note the effort not to disclose the Confessional based views, rather than shine a light on them.
Still waiting for Yeshua1 to post what they believe are the main differences. How about Reformed Baptists believe in Unconditional Election, whereas non Confessional Baptists believe in Election through faith in the truth. Can you add to our list?

Non Confession based Baptists believe the Bible means what it says, Jesus will reign on earth for 1000 years.
Non Confession based Baptists believe Christ died as a ransom for all.
Non Confession based Baptists believe Christ became the propitiation (or means of salvation) for the whole world.
Non Confession based Baptists believe the church leaders (no matter the title) report and are accountable to the congregation.
Non Confession based Baptists believe we are saved by grace through faith.
Non Confession based Baptists believe in open communion, open to all professing believers.

Reformed Baptists deny the earthly 1000 year reign.
Reformed Baptists deny Christ died as a ransom for all.
Reformed Baptists deny Christ is the propitiation (means of salvation) for the whole world.
Reformed Baptists deny that church leaders (no matter the title) are accountable to the congregation.
Reformed Baptists deny we are saved by grace through faith, they claim we are saved then given faith.
Reformed Baptists deny open communion to all professing believers.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another false claim, non Reformed Baptists are mostly dispy and believe Christ died as a ransom for all.
Note the effort not to disclose the Confessional based views, rather than shine a light on them.
Still waiting for Yeshua1 to post what they believe are the main differences. How about Reformed Baptists believe in Unconditional Election, whereas non Confessional Baptists believe in Election through faith in the truth. Can you add to our list?

Non Confession based Baptists believe the Bible means what it says, Jesus will reign on earth for 1000 years.
Non Confession based Baptists believe Christ died as a ransom for all.
Non Confession based Baptists believe Christ became the propitiation (or means of salvation) for the whole world.
Non Confession based Baptists believe the church leaders (no matter the title) report and are accountable to the congregation.
Non Confession based Baptists believe we are saved by grace through faith.
Non Confession based Baptists believe in open communion, open to all professing believers.
You honestly believe non reformed Calvinist Baptist agree with your views regarding salvation methods used by God?
Reformed Baptists deny the earthly 1000 year reign.
Reformed Baptists deny Christ died as a ransom for all.
Reformed Baptists deny Christ is the propitiation (means of salvation) for the whole world.
Reformed Baptists deny that church leaders (no matter the title) are accountable to the congregation.
Reformed Baptists deny we are saved by grace through faith, they claim we are saved then given faith.
Reformed Baptists deny open communion to all professing believers.

 

[Van]

Please provide what you believe are the differences between the two groups. Most non-reformed Baptists believe in the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth, just as scripture says. Most non-reformed Baptists believe Christ died as a ransom for all. Most non-reformed Baptists believe Jesus is the propitiation (means of salvation) for the whole world. Most non-Reformed Baptists believe we are saved by grace through faith, not saved by grace then given faith.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yet another effort to change the subject and imply inappropriate behavior on my part. Note I pointed out a non-Confession based belief that everyone (even Reformed Baptists) are saved by grace through faith. When God credits our heart-felt love and devotion to God and Christ as righteousness, whatever flaws in our doctrine that may exist do not matter.

Which heart?

The one that's cold, hard as a stone?

Or...

The one that is fleshly and loves Him, the one He gives to them?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I am relying on the Word of God

This, of course, is exactly what you are not doing. I have asked you for one single place in the Bible where the Lord Jesus Christ is described as a 'means of salvation' and of course you have not done so because you cannot. You cannot even find a place in the Bible where propitiation is described as being a means of salvation. You are relying on Thayer and Vine, which you are obliged to do since you have no knowledge of Greek. But Thayer and Vine are not the word of God, are they? Therefore you are relying upon the word of men rather than the word of God QED.

Your theory seems to be along the lines of this syllogism:
1. The Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins.
2. Propitiation is a means of salvation.
3. therefore the Lord Jesus is a means of salvation

However, by the same logic you have:
1. A sheep dog looks after sheep.
2. Looking after sheep is the job of a shepherd.
3. Therefore a sheep dog is a shepherd.

or
1. A fishing rod catches fish.
2. Someone who catches fish is a fisherman.
3. Therefore a fishing rod is a fisherman.

So:
1. The Father being propitiated in respect of our sins saves us
2. The Lord Jesus is the propitiation of our sins.
3. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is our Saviour.

The Lord Jesus is certainly the propitiation for our sins. How is He the propitiation for our sins? He has propitiated the Father towards us by atoning for our sins. By doing this He Himself has saved us, thus becoming our Saviour. Propitiation might be described as a 'means of salvation,' though it is never so described in the Bible. But the Lord Jesus Christ is not a means of salvation; He is the Saviour, and so He is described over and over again in Scripture.

I see I overlooked the absurd claim that Christ being the propitiation, the means of salvation, makes Him not the Saviour. No Christ saves us from the righteous wrath of God the Father.

Once again, the sheepdog cannot be the shepherd; the hammer or the nail cannot be the carpenter.

Once more, 1 John 2:2 says Christ is the propitiation (or means of salvation) not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world, all mankind

But of course, that's not what 1 John 2:2 says, is it?
Here it is in your favourite NASB. 'And He Himself is the propitiation [or 'satisfaction;' NASB margin] for our sins; and not for ours only but for those of the whole world.' Apart from not giving 'means of salvation as a synonym for 'propitiation, the NASB also makes it clear that the words 'those of' do not appear in any Geek text. Jesus Christ is not described as the propitiation for the sins of the whole world in the sense of 'all mankind.' How could He be? It is plain that God is not propitiated towards the whole of mankind. 'He who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him' (John 3:36).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Can you add to our list?

It's not our list, it's your list.

 

[Van]

I see yet another denial of scripture. Words have meanings. The Greek word translated "propitiation" refers to Christ as the "personal means by which God shows mercy. So I have provided directly from the Word of God support for the biblical truth, Christ is the means of salvation from the wrath of God.

Now here is a counter claim "He has propitiated the Father towards us by atoning for our sins" While this is true for everyone who has been transferred into Christ, it is not true of those not yet saved. And once again, no verse or passage says all the elect have been propitiated which is your false theology view. Only those placed into Christ have been propitiated.

So by the numbers
1) I provided 1 John 2:2 which says Christ is the propitiation for the whole word, and provided the meaning of propitiation as the means of appeasing God.

2) Your view (Reformed Theology if you deny it) is that Christ propitiated all the elect when He died on the cross. That bogus view is found nowhere in scripture.

 

[Van]

Which heart?
The one that's cold, hard as a stone? Or...The one that is fleshly and loves Him, the one He gives to them?

He we have yet another bogus claim, that a lost person cannot put their whole-hearted faith in Christ unless they have been "quickened" by irresistible grace, thus compelled to trust in Christ. That view has been refuted many times.

Sinners can hear and believe the gospel and be saved. Matthew 13:11-13. That is why Jesus spoke in parables. If the Calvinist false theology were true, Jesus could have spoken plainly for none would have listened and believed and been healed.

 

[Van]

It's not our list, it's your list.

Are you sure not one Reformed Baptist has contributed to the list of differences. If true does that mean all their posts were to obscure the differences?

 

[SovereignGrace]

He we have yet another bogus claim, that a lost person cannot put their whole-hearted faith in Christ unless they have been "quickened" by irresistible grace, thus compelled to trust in Christ. That view has been refuted many times.

Sinners can hear and believe the gospel and be saved. Matthew 13:11-13. That is why Jesus spoke in parables. If the Calvinist false theology were true, Jesus could have spoken plainly for none would have listened and believed and been healed.

I gave you a chance and un-ignored your. Foolish me. I leave you to your own self-destruction. Toodles!!

 

[Van]

Yet another off topic post saying I am engaged in "self-destruction." But no response to Matthew 13:11-13 which says Jesus had to speak in parables to prevent the lost from understanding the gospel at that time.

But is this truth one of the differences? I think so as Arminians claim "prevenient grace" enables all the lost to respond or not to the gospel.

 

[SovereignGrace]

 

[Van]

Yet another disparagement post devoid of on topic content. Is one of the differences that Reformed Baptists hide their doctrine and non Confession based Baptists present their doctrines unambiguously? Probably not, we should not judge the Reformed Baptists by those that profess being Reformed Baptists and post on this board.

 

[Van]

Propitiation is the means of salvation from the wrath of God. Here is yet another quote for a total of five that all say the same thing:

The word propitiation appears in the New King James Version of the Bible in four verses: Romans 3:25; Hebrews 2:17; 1 John 2:2; and 1 John 4:10. In each case the word is used to express the grace of God, which allows Jesus’ sacrifice to be the means by which our sins can be forgiven.

How about one more:

Christ’s shed blood is the means by which God’s wrath is propitiated.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

2) Your view (Reformed Theology if you deny it) is that Christ propitiated all the elect when He died on the cross. That bogus view is found nowhere in scripture.

I am busy tonight, so I will just ask you if you want to revise this statement. Do you really believe that anyone at all anywhere in the world ever believes that Christ propitiated all the elect?