• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

What are the minimum theological beliefs to be called Christian?

Status
Not open for further replies.

AustinC

Well-Known Member
A common Calvinist error in to swap the subject of Ephesians 2:8, saved, with through faith, in the text the subject being saved, that, gift in "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: . . ." While it is true faith can be counted as do to a gift of repentane, in that text faith is not the gift, "are ye saved" is.
You are saved by God's grace. Twice Paul affirms this truth. Faith is that which confirms the salvation, it is not that which secures the salvation.

Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Faith confirms salvation, it does not secure salvation.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
The setting aside on the basis of faith is in the correct order. So by the numbers:
Faith precedes being chosen.

Hearing with understand precedes choosing to put our faith and devotion in Christ.

Choosing to put our faith and devotion in Christ precedes God crediting (or not) our faith as righteousness.

God crediting our faith as righteousness precedes God setting us apart in Christ.

Merit-based salvation presented by Van. A false gospel. Van's teaching shows the OP his answer.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What does Galatians 3 tell you? It is right there. Before faith...
I addressed 2 Thessalonians and showed you are wrong. You ignore it and now say 2 Timothy 3:15.
Let us look:

2 Timothy 3:10-17 You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Note: Nowhere in this passage do we see faith coming before God made Timothy His child. Nowhere do we see faith being the merit-based means by which Timothy is considered righteous.

Van, you are dead wrong. You show the OP an example of a false teacher who claims to be a Christian. (God knows your position before Him. It is based on God's choice, not on your faith.)

What does Galatians tell any objective reader, that Calvinism is bogus.
I addressed 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and showed you were wrong.
Next through faith comes before salvation, thus we are chosen for salvation by reason of God crediting our faith as righteousness.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Merit-based salvation presented by Van. A false gospel. Van's teaching shows the OP his answer.
Once again this Calvinist denies Romans 4:16. See a pattern?

In order to be a Calvinist you must be willing to deny scripture,
2 Timothy 2:6 does not say Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all
2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say our election for salvation is on the basis of faith in the truth.
Matthew 23:13 does not say people were entering the kingdom without the influence of irresistible grace.

Nope, if scripture conflicts with Calvinism, then scripture must be rewritten.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Faith precedes being chosen.
Ephesians 1:4, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." This being on God's part. On our part our faith always has to come first. Remember God is omniscient. He knows us in His eternity. We only know God from our faith on.
1 Peter 1:2, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience . . . ."
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ephesians 1:4, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." This being on God's part. On our part our faith always has to come first. Remember God is omniscient. He knows us in His eternity. We only know God from our faith on.
1 Peter 1:2, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience . . . ."
This is a corporate election, not an individual election. 1 Peter 2:10 says "once we were not a people" so if we had been chosen individually before creation, we would have always been a people. Therefore the Election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate. And it is this misinterpretation (elected individually before creation) that drives the bogus doctrine of Calvinism. Rather than admit they were wrong in their interpretation of this verse, instead they nullify all the verses that are in conflict.

Such as: In order to be a Calvinist you must be willing to deny scripture,
2 Timothy 2:6 does not say Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all
2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say our election for salvation is on the basis of faith in the truth.
Matthew 23:13 does not say people were entering the kingdom without the influence of irresistible grace.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
This is a corporate election, not an individual election.
So the corprate election is not made up of individuals, which is bogus. God does not know, according to you, any individual who His going to save. Your view of God is truely a dumb God. Please correct me on your understanding of God's omniscience.
 
Last edited:

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So the corporate election is not made up of individuals, which is bogus. God does not know, according to you, any individual who His going to save. Your view of God is truly a dumb God.
Perhaps you should not jump to such a conclusion.
Scripture says God chooses individuals for salvation through (or on the basis of) faith in the truth.
Thus individual election for salvation is biblical doctrine.

1 Peter 2:10 says "once we were not a people" so if we had been chosen individually before creation, we would have always been a people. Therefore the Election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate. And it is this misinterpretation (elected individually before creation) that drives the bogus doctrine of Calvinism. Rather than admit they were wrong in their interpretation of this verse, instead they nullify all the verses that are in conflict.

Such as: In order to be a Calvinist you must be willing to deny scripture,
2 Timothy 2:6 does not say Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all
2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say our election for salvation is on the basis of faith in the truth.
Matthew 23:13 does not say people were entering the kingdom without the influence of irresistible grace.
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
In the recent thread on cults, the issue of what is necessary to believe to be called Christian. Some argued that Roman Catholics could not be called Christian,others disagreed.

What doctrines need to be believed to be called Christian? Or in other words what Christian doctrine cannot be denied?
What does doctrine have to do with being a Christian? If the lost point out you are a Christian that should be proof enough, if you have doubts about your personal beliefs. If your salvation relies on beliefs, you have it backwards. God looks at your trust and obedience to Him, not what you believe. Confession is not the only factor, because many who confess Lord, Lord, will be rejected by God.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Perhaps you should not jump to such a conclusion.
Scripture says God chooses individuals for salvation through (or on the basis of) faith in the truth.
Thus individual election for salvation is biblical doctrine.

1 Peter 2:10 says "once we were not a people" so if we had been chosen individually before creation, we would have always been a people. Therefore the Election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate. And it is this misinterpretation (elected individually before creation) that drives the bogus doctrine of Calvinism. Rather than admit they were wrong in their interpretation of this verse, instead they nullify all the verses that are in conflict.

Such as: In order to be a Calvinist you must be willing to deny scripture,
2 Timothy 2:6 does not say Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all
2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say our election for salvation is on the basis of faith in the truth.
Matthew 23:13 does not say people were entering the kingdom without the influence of irresistible grace.
Your long rant does not make your view fully correct.
* I believe in Total depravity per Romans 3:11, "There are none . . . ."
* I believe in condtional Unmerited election on our part. God's conditions for our election includes our faith in time. Also that we cannot deserve our faith.
* I believe in an unlimited atonement, in that Christ died to be Lord of all. Of those whom He will judge, and those whom He chose to save on account of their faith, John 10:11.
* I believe God's grace is offered to all, Titus 2:11, Acts of the Apostles 7:51, Hebrews 10:29.
* I believe God keeps those whom He saves, John 10:27-30.
 
Last edited:

37818

Well-Known Member
Perhaps you should not jump to such a conclusion.
Scripture says God chooses individuals for salvation through (or on the basis of) faith in the truth.
Thus individual election for salvation is biblical doctrine.

1 Peter 2:10 says "once we were not a people" so if we had been chosen individually before creation, we would have always been a people. Therefore the Election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate. And it is this misinterpretation (elected individually before creation) that drives the bogus doctrine of Calvinism. Rather than admit they were wrong in their interpretation of this verse, instead they nullify all the verses that are in conflict.

Such as: In order to be a Calvinist you must be willing to deny scripture,
2 Timothy 2:6 does not say Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all
2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say our election for salvation is on the basis of faith in the truth.
Matthew 23:13 does not say people were entering the kingdom without the influence of irresistible grace.
Fair enough. As I understood your presentation, we seemed to disagree.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Once again this Calvinist denies Romans 4:16. See a pattern?

In order to be a Calvinist you must be willing to deny scripture,
2 Timothy 2:6 does not say Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all
2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say our election for salvation is on the basis of faith in the truth.
Matthew 23:13 does not say people were entering the kingdom without the influence of irresistible grace.

Nope, if scripture conflicts with Calvinism, then scripture must be rewritten.
Sigh...
Let us read all of Romans 4 so every reader can see that Abram was first chosen by God as a child of the promise, given faith from God to believe the promise and declared righteous, by God, because of the faith God had given Abram, not because of Abram creating his own faith (as Van is teaching).

Romans 4:1-25 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly0, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.

That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”

But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Question: How could Abram believe God if God had not first spoken and made a covenant with Abram?

Question: Does God justify the one who has faith or the ungodly?

Question: Does God forgive lawless deeds because of merited faith or because God graciously chooses to forgive lawless sinners by grace alone?

Question: Was the promise given to Abram because he was faithful, or...because God gave Abram faith and made the promise come to fruition through the faith that God gave to Abram?

Question: Does the promise rest on grace?

Question: Who gets all the glory in Romans 4? Is it God alone, or is it Abrams faith, which moves God to be gracious? (I say it is the former, not the latter.)
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Here, yet again, is a straight-up attack on the poster.
God condemns Calvinism, the TULI of the Tulip.
If the "T" were true, the people of Matthew 23:13 would not have been "entering" the kingdom.
If the "U" were true, the people of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 would not have been chosen through or on the basis of faith in the truth.
If the "L" were true, Christ would not have laid down His life as a ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:6.
If the "I" were true, the people of Matthew 23:13 would not have been prevented from going in.
It's an open rebuke of false teaching being promoted by you.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Fair enough. As I understood your presentation, we seemed to disagree.
His presupposition is false, which causes him to uses these verses as a prooftext to a false teaching regarding corporate election. Notice the subtle lie that faith determines the election of a corporate people. His view is man-centered where the human is applauded for manufacturing their own faith, which causes God to consider righteous and therefore elect that person into the corporate body. It is a twisted manipulation of verses to promote a false doctrine. Those who follow Van will live in a world of legalism all their days.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Your long rant does not make your view fully correct.
* I believe in Total depravity per Romans 3:11, "There are none . . . ."
* I believe in condtional Unmerited election on our part. God's conditions for our election includes our faith in time. Also that we cannot deserve our faith.
* I believe in an unlimited atonement, in that Christ died to be Lord of all. Of those whom He will judge, and those whom He chose to save on account of their faith, John 10:11.
* I believe God's grace is offered to all, Titus 2:11, Acts of the Apostles 7:51, Hebrews 10:29.
* I believe God keeps those whom He saves, John 10:27-30.
Your rant is not "fully correct."
Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine.
Yes our election is unmerited, for salvation is by grace through faith.
On account of faith may be a little too meritorious. On the basis of faith (when credited by God as righteousness) is closer to the mark.
God's grace is offered to almost all, some like the unbelieving Jews in Romans 11 are not allowed to believe, and others, like Soil #1 in Matthew 13 have hardened their hearts by the practice of sin so as to not understand the gospel, and therefore never receive an offer.
Yes, once saved, always saved.

Consider your interpretation of Romans 3:11, There are none righteous, that is true but being unrighteous does not preclude seeking God and trusting in Christ. And while scripture says "no one seeks after God" it does not say "no one ever seeks after God. The actual idea is no one seeks after God all the time, for we are sin and therefore we are all under sin.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sigh...
Let us read all of Romans 4 so every reader can see that Abram was first chosen by God as a child of the promise, given faith from God to believe the promise and declared righteous, by God, because of the faith God had given Abram, not because of Abram creating his own faith (as Van is teaching).
SNIP
But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.


Question: How could Abram believe God if God had not first spoken and made a covenant with Abram?
Of course Abraham believed the promises of God, so of course God conveyed those promises first. Not at issue.

Question: Does God justify the one who has faith or the ungodly?
Of course God justifies those ungodly whose faith He credits as righteous.

Question: Does God forgive lawless deeds because of merited faith or because God graciously chooses to forgive lawless sinners by grace alone?
Of course we are saved and thus forgiven by grace alone through faith alone. Not at issue.

Question: Was the promise given to Abram because he was faithful, or...because God gave Abram faith and made the promise come to fruition through the faith that God gave to Abram?
Nowhere is scripture does it say or suggest Abram was "given faith." Abraham believe God and it was credited to Him as righteousness.

Question: Does the promise rest on grace?
Yes, Abraham did not merit (1) the land, (2) the nation, or (3) the spiritual blessing brought through his descendant, Jesus.

Question: Who gets all the glory in Romans 4? Is it God alone, or is it Abrams faith, which moves God to be gracious? (I say it is the former, not the latter.)
God in Three Persons receives the glory given by His chosen people.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Question: How could Abram believe God if God had not first spoken and made a covenant with Abram?
Of course Abraham believed the promises of God, so of course God conveyed those promises first. Not at issue.
So God initiated before faith existed?

Question: Does God justify the one who has faith or the ungodly?
Of course God justifies those ungodly whose faith He credits as righteous.
Here is your twist, which is false. The ungodly do not have faith therefore it cannot be righteous.

Question: Does God forgive lawless deeds because of merited faith or because God graciously chooses to forgive lawless sinners by grace alone?
Of course we are saved and thus forgiven by grace alone through faith alone. Not at issue.
By grace alone, yes.
Once grace is provided, faith is given.
You cannot say "alone" to two different things. That would be a dual thing, not an alone thing. Here you twist your theology.

Question: Was the promise given to Abram because he was faithful, or...because God gave Abram faith and made the promise come to fruition through the faith that God gave to Abram?
Nowhere is scripture does it say or suggest Abram was "given faith." Abraham believe God and it was credited to Him as righteousness.
If God never initiated the relationship with Abram, would Abram have believed?

Question: Does the promise rest on grace?
Yes, Abraham did not merit (1) the land, (2) the nation, or (3) the spiritual blessing brought through his descendant, Jesus.
Agreed, Abram's faith had nothing to do with God's covenental grace bestowed upon Abram.

Question: Who gets all the glory in Romans 4? Is it God alone, or is it Abrams faith, which moves God to be gracious? (I say it is the former, not the latter.)
God in Three Persons receives the glory given by His chosen people.
Correct, human faith has nothing to do with God's gracious choice to save. Faith is an effect of God's gracious salvation of the sinner. "Even while we were yet sinners..."
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top