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What are the minimum theological beliefs to be called Christian?
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Yes. Reynolds, "Something to Be Saved, FROM".
Sin, as you said, we are all sinners and the Born Again soul will know if they, personally, have seen their sin against God, their GUILT of Breaking His Law, and their NEED for a Savior.
Then, the Saved soul CAN BE TAUGHT.
"Which things also we speak,
not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,
"but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;
"comparing spiritual things with spiritual."
1 Corinthians 2:13
...
"Assurance" can make for very interesting inquiries, suggestions, and observations.
William Williams on Assurance
The Welsh Calvinistic Methodists of the 18th Century Evangelical Revival taught that Christians should know that they are saved. The leaders of this movement, Daniel Rowland, Howell Harris and William Williams drew on the rich, Bible-based Puritan theology of assurance. They taught that believers should dilligently seek the "witness of the Spirit" or full assurance of faith. Converts were gathered into Societies or Experience Meetings where they could share their experiences of the trials and joys of the Christian life. William Williams wrote a book on how these meeting were to be led and encouraged.
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This question was to be put to those who wished to join an Experience Meeting:
.
Example question:
"Though you have not received the witness of the Spirit"(STRONGLY, PHYSICALLY, which The Holy Spirit Doe Not always Give, as a crutch)
"yet are you seeking God with all your heart,
and that with a constant disposition of the soul (not in fits of conviction),
"longing to lay hold on God, wanting nothing but Him alone,
and counting all things loss that you may gain Him,
not resting till you posess Him?"
This would lead to talk about, "sin", again,
and THEN The Message of The Gospel, after they are convicted.
Then, more questions like these William William had.
...
I have a dozen of the questions I wrote down when I heard it Preached, if you can't find them, other than in William William's book.
Each would make a "Topic", here.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Scriptural Baptism separates all other religious, or civil, organizations,
from The church assemblies, Jesus Gathers together,
Organized Scripturally, to Worship Him.
The candidates for Scriptural Baptism are those:
1.) with a Profession of Faith
2.) are being Baptised to picture what Jesus Did for them, in His Death, Burial, And Resurrection,
3.) they must be Baptised in the proper manner, i.e., dipped, plunged,
4.) and know they are being baptized for the right reason(s); to picture Jesus Gospel Burial and Resurrection, to join that particular church assembly, [that indicates faithfulness to The Bible, on their other Doctrines] fellowship, to Worship and serve The Lord,( and not that 'baptism' has any relationship to 'salvation', at all, i.e., that is 'NOT the right reason' to be baptised.
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
AustinC said that we don't Elect ourselves (to be chosen by God)?, with 'our faith'.
I think that a pretty Sound Bible Position, Spiritually.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Discipleship only happens to the saved, and Peter never lost his discipleship.
To be a disciple is to be saved.
In addition,
Everything before the cross as well as after it is for the believer to know and to learn from ( Romans 15:4 ).
It's all God's word, and it's all for us as believers to take to heart.
Back to my original focus...
Do you really believe that someone who is born again and has had their heart changed by the Lord, can go back to the world, enjoy it for the rest of their lives, and actually be saved, George?
That the Spirit of God will not get a hold of them and rebuke and chasten them in His love for them?
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Inheriting the kingdom precedes entering it, does it not?
Then to me, only the saved can enter in to what they've inherited, prepared for them from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:34 ).
But I digress...
Our real inheritance as believers is Jesus Christ, isn't it?
" After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I [am] thy shield, [and] thy exceeding great reward." ( Genesis 15:1 ).
" And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I [am] their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I [am] their possession." ( Ezekiel 44:29 ).
" When Christ [who is] our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory." ( Colossians 3:4 )
" Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" ( John 11:25 )
George,
Do you not know that Jesus Christ and an eternal relationship with Him is the most important part of our inheritance as believers?
That eternal life, which is to know God and His Son ( John 17:3 ), is what God's children have been given?
The inheritance is the relationship.
Believers have received the down payment or "earnest" of it when they were given the Holy Spirit at belief ( Ephesians 1:13 ).
They will receive the rest when He comes again.
We will see Him as He is, and we will know Him as we are known of Him.
Now we see in a glass darkly, but then face to face.
So what you're telling me in the above ( please correct me if I'm wrong ), and that I'm dovetailing with what you've stated above....is that born again believers can lose Jesus Christ, if I'm understanding you correctly.
But George...
I see the Scriptures teaching that Christians wait for Christ because He is our life and our exceeding great reward.
To know Him is worth more than this life can offer, and to one day see Him will be worth more than all the gold in the world, my friend.
To the believer, there's nothing more important than to one day go to be with Him...
Their Saviour who loved them and gave Himself for them.
Back to what I posted before...
Do you honestly believe that someone can walk away from that and still be saved and indwelt with the Holy Spirit?
I don't.
In fact, I believe that if anyone ever walks away from the Saviour who loves them, it's because they were never His sheep, they never knew him ( and He never knew them ( Matthew 7:21-23 ) and they were never going to inherit the kingdom;
Nor did they ever have that knowing relationship.
To put it the way 2 Peter 2 does, only the dog goes back to the vomit, and the sow to her wallowing in the mire.
Believers are neither.
God's word says that they are the beloved sons and daughters of the living God who overcome the world, the flesh and the devil by their faith and by the power of His Spirit.
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37818
Well-Known Member
You claimed, as stated, was patently not true. While it is true the New Testament has its origin in the Old Testament, Jeremiah 31:31, Isaiah 53:1-12. To claim in any way the gospel is not part of the New Testament is absurd. Read my signature.
Unstated effort to suggest we are not chosen through or on the basis of faith. 2 Thess. 2:13
Gal 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
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Yes you did by providing all those supporting verses!!
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Let's read them together, Van:
John 1:13 tells me that man's will or bloodline is not what makes a person born again.
Therefore the faith that God credits to us as righteousness, doesn't come from us because an act of faith is an act of the will...
A will that is dead-set against God ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Psalms 10, Psalms 14:1-3 ) cannot act in favor of God.
Romans 9:16 tells me that, it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.
Therefore, whatever faith we have or could possibly have, doesn't merit us anything anyway.
It all relies on God who shows mercy.
Titus 3:4-7 tells me that it was not by any work of righteousness that we are saved, but by His mercy.
Therefore, any work of faith does not save, but again, only by His mercy are we saved.
Finally, James 1:17-18 tells me that every good gift and every perfect gift comes down from God.
Of His own will He "birthed" us by the word of truth...
Not our will.
Therefore, our faith, once again, is not what saves us, nor do we as believers get credit for it, eternally.
His mercy is all that counts, Van, and it was all that ever counted.
Faith is simply something ( marvelous ) that God gives to His children, who then use it to do many things by...
Including being credited with righteousness by using it.
At the end of the day,
God gets all the credit, and we get none.
Not even our faith as believers merits His gift of eternal life...
Nothing can merit that except perfect obedience to the Law.
Start a thread in the CvA section if you like, and I'm sure that someone will address it.
I doubt that I will, because to me, you simply aren't seeing that God's gifts cannot possibly be merited;
While I see that eternal life is a gracious gift ( Romans 6:23 ) given by the Lord to whoever He wishes, and it is not a reward for us as sinful men performing an act ( Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6 ).
With that said,
I believe that @Mikey 's thread is about "minimum theological beliefs to be a Christian" and I've gotten off track considerably.
Good evening to you sir.
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I hope everyone who reads your first sentence can see you have a theology based upon merit rather than grace. It should be easy for everyone to see your theology is not taught by God, but is created by you twisting scripture.
Let us look at your text in 2 Thessalonians 2:11-14.
Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Notice that nowhere in this passage is your assertion made by God.
Now, let's look at Galatians 3:23-29.
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
Notice that God completely destroys your teaching in this passage. Humans do not have faith outside of being in Christ. God does not scour the earth, looking for people who have faith, so that He can call them righteous. No person, outside of Christ, has faith, Van. Your whole theology of faith is a creation of your own mind, not what God teaches. The very texts you share prove you to be utterly wrong.
(I fully expect you will now avoid the text and attack me.)
@Van and @AustinC, I said this elsewhere, but thought it was relevant to your discussion
The will is clearly sinful before salvation according to scripture. Romans 1 through Romans 8 shows the Law cannot be kept, and by not keeping the Torah we are inevitably under wrath. That is why we need the Cross.
Romans 8 is clear without Life by the Spirit it is impossible to be holy. Without holiness we will not see God (Hebrews 12:14-17). We are changed forever when the Holy Spirit comes upon us at salvation.
Calvinism is correct in that Romans 9 makes it clear that God must show mercy and compassion in choosing one for salvation in order to be saved.
I feel it is best to address that faith is a credit (not a work as the first half of Romans 4 explains).
OK to the scriptures!
Romans 4
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, [a]our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not [c]before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Abraham has nothing to boast about. God credits Abraham as righteous when he has faith.
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
This credit given by God for the act of faith is not a wage that is due. It is not counted as a work.
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
This credit based on faith covers our lawless deeds and sins. We are not held to account by God.
9 Is this blessing then on [d]the circumcised, or on [e]the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was [f]circumcised, or [g]uncircumcised? Not while [h]circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
Adherence to the Torah is not needed to receive the credit of righteousness through faith. While an uncircumcised man, Abraham receives the credit of righteousness for his faith.
11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [j]he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
Abraham, who is given the sign of circumcision, is thus the father of those who are uncircumcised and are credited with righteousness based on faith.
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which [k]he had while uncircumcised.
Abraham receives the sign of circumcision to be the father of those circumcised, who follow in his footsteps of having faith while uncircumcised.
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his [l]descendants that he would be heir of the world was not [m]through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are [n]of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;
Abraham and his descendants are given an inheritance of the world based on faith, not because they hold to the Torah.
I'll stop here before climbing into deep theology for the rest of Romans 4.
The will is clearly sinful before salvation according to scripture. Romans 1 through Romans 8 shows the Law cannot be kept, and by not keeping the Torah we are inevitably under wrath. That is why we need the Cross.
Romans 8 is clear without Life by the Spirit it is impossible to be holy. Without holiness we will not see God (Hebrews 12:14-17). We are changed forever when the Holy Spirit comes upon us at salvation.
Calvinism is correct in that Romans 9 makes it clear that God must show mercy and compassion in choosing one for salvation in order to be saved.
I feel it is best to address that faith is a credit (not a work as the first half of Romans 4 explains).
OK to the scriptures!
Romans 4
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, [a]our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not [c]before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Abraham has nothing to boast about. God credits Abraham as righteous when he has faith.
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
This credit given by God for the act of faith is not a wage that is due. It is not counted as a work.
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
This credit based on faith covers our lawless deeds and sins. We are not held to account by God.
9 Is this blessing then on [d]the circumcised, or on [e]the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was [f]circumcised, or [g]uncircumcised? Not while [h]circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
Adherence to the Torah is not needed to receive the credit of righteousness through faith. While an uncircumcised man, Abraham receives the credit of righteousness for his faith.
11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [j]he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
Abraham, who is given the sign of circumcision, is thus the father of those who are uncircumcised and are credited with righteousness based on faith.
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which [k]he had while uncircumcised.
Abraham receives the sign of circumcision to be the father of those circumcised, who follow in his footsteps of having faith while uncircumcised.
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his [l]descendants that he would be heir of the world was not [m]through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are [n]of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;
Abraham and his descendants are given an inheritance of the world based on faith, not because they hold to the Torah.
I'll stop here before climbing into deep theology for the rest of Romans 4.
Was Abram chosen by God, elected by God before God gave him faith? Yes or no?
No unchosen person has faith and therefore God does not see their faith as righteous and thus save them.
That is an interesting argument, but so as not to continue clogging up this thread with a debate that is off topic, I send you to my three open threads on the subject of Monergism (the point you argue) vs Synergism.
A Biblical Defense of Arminianism #1
A Biblical Defense of Synergism #2
A Biblical Defense of Synergism #3
Steve, none of those mean anything to my question because monergism and synergism is not the point of the question. If you wish to avoid the subject simply say you wish to avoid the subject.
However, my question is related to the topic of this thread as we are discussing theology that causes groups to go off track and move into cults.
I am being a bit dodgy, but I did have some hope you would post in those threads so I could answer you. Your statement says two things to me.
1. To the point you are arguing first. The scripture says,
“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
What is the logical sequence given? God reveals Himself, which leads to Abraham trusts Him on faith, which leads to God credits Abraham as righteous. Why in this NT passage is there a lack of telling us faith was in fact God's work, not Abraham's? If the whole thing was God working in Abraham, why phrase it this way and not have God take credit immediately? Why tell us about predestination all the way in Romans 9-11 in a section about the true Israel, the children of Abraham? I just find this presentation confusing.
This goes to a broader problem I have with Calvinism, especially in regards to applying it to the OT. Where in the OT does the bible explain to us about eternal election, faith coming from God alone, and so many other points found in TULIP?
Meanwhile, there are texts that show God wants all saved found in the OT all the way through the NT. What of 1 Timothy 2:1-4? Let alone the Books of Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Lamentations?
That said, as I told Dave in another thread, I will say that Calvinism makes better sense of some verses than synergism. Ephesians 1-3, Romans 9-11, some other verses in the NT. That said, as I argued in my three biblical defenses of synergism, it fails to make sense of a whole host of verses. I will not call you 100% wrong, I will not call myself 100% right. That's obvious to me. My position has holes, and if even one scripture is at odds with a position of someone, then it is ultimately in error. I am in error, but I must warn you with sincerity, so are you. I have been for four years, asking, seeking, and knocking, perhaps not wholeheartedly with all my being. For, I am getting closer to understanding things but am not there yet and the Father has the wisdom I seek.
2. Arminianism is not a cult. I infer from your statement that you may even be saying that Christians who are not embracing TULIP may be false for doing so. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Is the question about how one is saved, or is it about orthodoxy? Because those are different questions.
Mikey
Active Member
Institutional orthodoxy. What makes a Christian denomination "Christian" as apposed to a Christian Cult.
Presbyterians are Christian though they hold to doctrinal error. (does not mean all presbyterians are Christian) but the same cannot be said for JW. Then theres the Roman Catholic issue which causes debate where they land. So im not looking for answers regarding individual salvation. Hope thats clear
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