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What are your thoughts on music?
- Thread starter FrigidDev
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He could have meant feath.
death disco?Or he could have meant:
Burn baby burn... *laugh*
Was the best picture I could find with feathers. Wanted one of a glam rocker with a boa, but could not find one.
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
No, we didn't go over it earlier; you simply stated it earlier. It's still not true. Man's anger is never justified.
All anger is fleshly anger. Please show me one instance in the Bible where a man became angry without consequence. And, before you use the verse, "Be ye angry and sin not," you might want to study it a bit.
Man's anger is never righteous. Only God can get angry without sinning. Hate is totally different than anger.
The fact that God gets angry is no justification for us to get angry. Why would God tell us to "put away" anger?
I agree that anger in the areas of one having an "angry spirit" or a general anger as part of their natural life is certainly evil. You and I have come across many who are just angry people and display such more often in their very living and nature by excess and acting out. One might suggest the attitude of the typical bully thug as an example. However, there is another anger.
This anger lies under the surface. It is more often revealed when one doesn't get some reward or is triggered by something internal and results in lashing out emotionally and often physically, usually toward those who are powerless to resist or too weak to put up much resistance.
Then there is this anger that is chaotic. It seeks to tear down what is good and more often is seen in those that would rather destroy than discuss. Typical of those who endorse violence in protest, or think that they might achieve some objective by "shouting down" someone else.
All such angers (those listed and even others) are evil and not of God.
There is a righteous anger, and indignation, a disgust, that a believer may have. It is when evil lifts itself and calls itself good. Such evil as would persuade others that their path is worthy, or that others are fools who do not follow them. This evil should be strongly rebuked, and labeled as dangerous, rebuffed in the strongest of terms and ways. For example: That good pastor finding that some snake has slithered into the assembly and is bringing harm to the "children" (using the term in the manner that John used). That pastor will be angry and righteously so not over just the harm done, but toward that actual snake.
I hate snakes! Having lived many years in Florida, I can't tolerate a snake! I don't get down to their level to examine their nose, or look under the belly, or even examine their mouth. As far as I'm concerned, the snake that comes near my sphere is one risking life and limb (well whatever it is behind the tail).
So, though I agree with your point, I also would draw a bit of a distinction.
What IS correct, and what point you are making very well, is that the music in question is by its very performance an angry genre. It is as that first example given above. It is evil by its nature.
There is another point that the OP is in error.
That is in the motivational aspects. Believer motivation should not be generated by music. Rather, by the Scriptures.
I would suggest that this is the area that is lacking in the responses of the author of the OP.
"HOW shall a young (person) cleanse their ways?"
It isn't through music.
It isn't through good preaching.
It isn't through good living.
It isn't through obeying mommy and daddy.
It isn't honoring God and country.
It isn't through good preaching.
It isn't through good living.
It isn't through obeying mommy and daddy.
It isn't honoring God and country.
It is through what the Scriptures teach such as found in Psalm 119, the priority of Scriptures above all this world offers:
How can a young man cleanse his way?
By taking heed according to Your word.
With my whole heart I have sought You;
Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!
Your word I have hidden in my heart,
That I might not sin against You.
Blessed are You, O Lord!
Teach me Your statutes.
With my lips I have declared
All the judgments of Your mouth.
I have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies,
As much as in all riches.
I will meditate on Your precepts,
And contemplate Your ways.
I will delight myself in Your statutes;
I will not forget Your word.
By taking heed according to Your word.
With my whole heart I have sought You;
Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!
Your word I have hidden in my heart,
That I might not sin against You.
Blessed are You, O Lord!
Teach me Your statutes.
With my lips I have declared
All the judgments of Your mouth.
I have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies,
As much as in all riches.
I will meditate on Your precepts,
And contemplate Your ways.
I will delight myself in Your statutes;
I will not forget Your word.
FrigidDev
Member
agedman just explained how that there is indeed righteous anger, so I won't beat a dead horse.
Also, like I said earlier in this thread, I am not motivated by this music. It simply supplements my pre-existing motivation. And honestly I see nothing wrong with using music to get excited for doing something.
Have you ever listened to "Almost Persuaded", and then had a revived spirit to do God's work? I know I have. Which I think is the whole point of "spiritual songs" as referenced by Paul.
Also, like I said earlier in this thread, I am not motivated by this music. It simply supplements my pre-existing motivation. And honestly I see nothing wrong with using music to get excited for doing something.
Have you ever listened to "Almost Persuaded", and then had a revived spirit to do God's work? I know I have. Which I think is the whole point of "spiritual songs" as referenced by Paul.
If that is your conclusion, than I think you missed the point of the post. Angry music is not benign.
I suggest that you have music in the opposite spectrum than what it should. For example: At the most crucial point at the end of the feast before the journey to the mount of Olives, the Scriptures state, "They sung a hymn..." When Paul and Silas were severely treated, thrown into the dungeon, they sang praises and shared Scriptures. This was the results of the day, not the catalyst for the next event. That it was used to bring the guard and family to Christ was no part of their thinking at the time for the singing.
If one uses music as "for doing something," such would be difficult to find Scripture support OUTSIDE of the call to worship.
Music AND meditation on God's word have their place.
Without God's word being the primary focus, the music is merely an emotional motivational tool that has little value. It is God's word that is sharper than any two edged sword, not the music.
As has already been pointed out, music alone communicates a value, a standard, a message.
For example: Children in a music classroom will move their legs and arms rhythmically to a march. They will undulate the trunk of their bodies to rock. They will dance in circles to a waltz. They will get angry looks and act out by pushing and hitting to heavy metal.
Music therapist are highly skilled in using music to reach and manipulate those who are psychotic, greatly troubled, schizophrenic, and emotionally disturbed. By manipulating the music they are able to bring calm and at times music is used as a catalyst to return to rationalism.
A Scripture example of a "music therapy" session may be found in the skillful use of music by David when in the presence and madness of Saul.
The question of the place of music must always be concerned with the priority of Scriptures.
The principle applies to all aspects of life.
For example: In the midst of a touchdown run, when the crowd stands to cheer, is the mind distracted from the things of God?
For example: In the midst of Beethoven's Fifth when all the instrumentalists are struggling to keep all the aspects of music and musicality, is the mind distracted from the things of God?
For example: In the midst of music worship, is the mind distracted from the things of God?
What ever a person does, thinks, feels, enjoys, all should be according to the word of God.
No person, shackled with that which pertains to the flesh, with that which pertains to the desires of the flesh, with that which places priority upon life and living, can be nor should be considered one living according to the word of God.
Be filled with the Spirit of God.
That which brings: "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control..." (Gal. 5)
The OP example is not of the Spirit of God, but a spirit of the flesh.
That which brings: "immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these..." (Gal 5)
How do you understand Ephesians 4:26 "Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath?"
It seems to me to be saying that some anger is justified and does not necessarily lead to sins of the flesh.
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
How do you understand Ephesians 4:26 "Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath?"
It seems to me to be saying that some anger is justified and does not necessarily lead to sins of the flesh.
I have always understood the Greek to infer that we may be "angered" but that we should not allow that anger to led us to sin. I would defer to your knowledge of the ancient languages.
Anger is an emotion. We sin when we allow ourselves to be controlled by our emotions instead of the Spirit of God.
There are far too many scriptures that teach we are to avoid anger, wrath, clam our, etc. There is no exception made for "righteous" indignation. Those two words are as conflicting as "Christian" Death Metal.
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
Ok, let's break this song down, and do some analytics on it.
The song starts with a tempo just above 200. (Bouncing around from 200-210, a hallmark of death metal). Tempos above 200 release more dopamine in the brain than usual, and some studies even say they release traces of oxytocin, also known as "the love drug". What does this mean to us? It means that music (of all styles) with a tempo of over 200 is literally addictive. This means that people can physically be dependent on music. This definitely goes against Paul's teachings, especially where he says, "I will not be brought under the power of any". And it's not something you can help. Like taking any type of drug, you can't take it and decide you won't get addicted; so you can't listen to this music and not get physically addicted.
Secondly, the guitar comes in with a repetitive minor lead. I've told my Music Theory students time and time again that minors are like the color red in painting. As I learned in art studies, the color red is a dangerous color to an artist. It is the first thing that a viewer's eyes will be drawn to, and it sets the tone for a whole picture. Same with minors in music. An added dash of minors can convey the meaning of a song nicely. But too much emphasis on the minor leaves one without hope. Minors should almost always end up resolving into majors at some point. Not doing so is like ending a song in a sus4. If there's no resolution, it acts psychologically on our brain, and leaves a longing for more, thus intensifying the addiction. To test this, hit the notes C, F, G on a keyboard simultaneously (Csus4), and then resolve to a C,E,G (C major triad). Then, go back to the C,F,G, and then walk away from the keyboard. Most people will either not be able to just walk away, and will have to resolve the chord first, or will have to mentally resolve the chord in their minds.
Third, we have the drums kick in using double kicks and then triple kicks. I have nothing against these "machine gun drums", as long as they're used in the proper way. However, repeated use of the triple kick allows our mind to becomes accustomed to the sound, and again, reinforces a dependency on the music. Triple kicks should be used as accentuating marks to highlight points and fill in spots. Using it to brace music deepens the emotion tied to the music (in this case, anger) and allows it to seat into ourselves. In other words, the emotion is no longer coming from the music. It has become a part of us.
Also, on this point, doctors have used EKGs to monitor people while listening to machine gun drum beats, and have found that when people listen to this, their heartrates elevate, and then become atypical. That their hearts sometimes actually "skip a beat". The study concludes that in listening to heavy music (metal, rap, hip-hop), our hearts actually try to sync in rhythm with the music. The skipping of the beat is very similar to what happens to patients with heart failure. Doctors have concluded that those with weak hearts shouldn't listen to heavy, thumping music.
Fourth, we have an emphasis on the "screaming guitar". This is a guitar that is played either extremely high on the fret, or played in harmonics. Either way, the use of the tremolo (commonly called the "whammy bar", or more informally, the "Whaa bar"), again accentuates the scream. To add the emphasis to this, notice how all the music stops as the guitar screams. They are allowing the mind to focus solely on the scream, creating a sense of fear, dread, and anger.
Lastly, we have no melody. If we are speaking technically, then this isn't even music, as music is comprised of three parts; rhythm (which this has in abundance), harmony (which this has, even though it's not clear), and melody (which this has none). However, having no melody allows the emphasis to be put onto another part of the song. Since the harmony only exists through the use of chords, this means the emphasis is placed upon the rhythm, serving only once again to heighten the physical dependence we create of the music.
Take all this, and repeat many times over with an occasional minor bridge, and we have that song. Notice, outside of the mention of Paul, I didn't even use any biblical arguments. All the arguments I used are documented, secular arguments that prove that listening to this type of music is unhealthy for your body, and creates a dependency on the music.
To bring this into the biblical realm, I'll only state that we ought to remember that we are the temple of God.
The song starts with a tempo just above 200. (Bouncing around from 200-210, a hallmark of death metal). Tempos above 200 release more dopamine in the brain than usual, and some studies even say they release traces of oxytocin, also known as "the love drug". What does this mean to us? It means that music (of all styles) with a tempo of over 200 is literally addictive. This means that people can physically be dependent on music. This definitely goes against Paul's teachings, especially where he says, "I will not be brought under the power of any". And it's not something you can help. Like taking any type of drug, you can't take it and decide you won't get addicted; so you can't listen to this music and not get physically addicted.
Secondly, the guitar comes in with a repetitive minor lead. I've told my Music Theory students time and time again that minors are like the color red in painting. As I learned in art studies, the color red is a dangerous color to an artist. It is the first thing that a viewer's eyes will be drawn to, and it sets the tone for a whole picture. Same with minors in music. An added dash of minors can convey the meaning of a song nicely. But too much emphasis on the minor leaves one without hope. Minors should almost always end up resolving into majors at some point. Not doing so is like ending a song in a sus4. If there's no resolution, it acts psychologically on our brain, and leaves a longing for more, thus intensifying the addiction. To test this, hit the notes C, F, G on a keyboard simultaneously (Csus4), and then resolve to a C,E,G (C major triad). Then, go back to the C,F,G, and then walk away from the keyboard. Most people will either not be able to just walk away, and will have to resolve the chord first, or will have to mentally resolve the chord in their minds.
Third, we have the drums kick in using double kicks and then triple kicks. I have nothing against these "machine gun drums", as long as they're used in the proper way. However, repeated use of the triple kick allows our mind to becomes accustomed to the sound, and again, reinforces a dependency on the music. Triple kicks should be used as accentuating marks to highlight points and fill in spots. Using it to brace music deepens the emotion tied to the music (in this case, anger) and allows it to seat into ourselves. In other words, the emotion is no longer coming from the music. It has become a part of us.
Also, on this point, doctors have used EKGs to monitor people while listening to machine gun drum beats, and have found that when people listen to this, their heartrates elevate, and then become atypical. That their hearts sometimes actually "skip a beat". The study concludes that in listening to heavy music (metal, rap, hip-hop), our hearts actually try to sync in rhythm with the music. The skipping of the beat is very similar to what happens to patients with heart failure. Doctors have concluded that those with weak hearts shouldn't listen to heavy, thumping music.
Fourth, we have an emphasis on the "screaming guitar". This is a guitar that is played either extremely high on the fret, or played in harmonics. Either way, the use of the tremolo (commonly called the "whammy bar", or more informally, the "Whaa bar"), again accentuates the scream. To add the emphasis to this, notice how all the music stops as the guitar screams. They are allowing the mind to focus solely on the scream, creating a sense of fear, dread, and anger.
Lastly, we have no melody. If we are speaking technically, then this isn't even music, as music is comprised of three parts; rhythm (which this has in abundance), harmony (which this has, even though it's not clear), and melody (which this has none). However, having no melody allows the emphasis to be put onto another part of the song. Since the harmony only exists through the use of chords, this means the emphasis is placed upon the rhythm, serving only once again to heighten the physical dependence we create of the music.
Take all this, and repeat many times over with an occasional minor bridge, and we have that song. Notice, outside of the mention of Paul, I didn't even use any biblical arguments. All the arguments I used are documented, secular arguments that prove that listening to this type of music is unhealthy for your body, and creates a dependency on the music.
To bring this into the biblical realm, I'll only state that we ought to remember that we are the temple of God.
FrigidDev
Member
Ok, this is long.
So, you take several different elements, point out a few studies that have been conducted on them, and then try to tie them together as bad.
I just want to say I enjoyed reading your post, it was interesting your analysis of the song. I play guitar(acoustic), and piano, so I could appreciate it.
Anyway, you say that 200+ BPM is addictive. Didn't know that, but I'll take your word for it. Perhaps it is addictive, but I have times where I completely change the genre of music for several days. I might be listening to death metal today, and then listen to Rap for a week, it depends. I don't see any addiction, so I'll take that element with a grain of salt.
Then, you go on to analyze how the song works, with your points on the minor chords. I just want to say that I LOVE minor chords, and I used to love them before I had ever heard a metal song. I don't see how they are bad. I also don't see how the progression that leaves you hanging is bad either...it's a musical style.
With the drums...you shouldn't there's nothing wrong with them. You're making some assumptions that just because a song uses triple kicks extensively...it's somehow wrong? I don't understand your point.
However, I am open to more conversation on this idea of debate. Here's another song for you to try out...let me know if you think this song is...satanic. It has no lyrics, and I definitely don't feel angry when I finish listening to it.
Also could I get some sources on your points? Here's a link, that talks about the metal = "anger" part.
http://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-why-heavy-metal-is-good-for-you
Well your first argument falls apart because it is a straw man.
No one said the medium is 100 percent of the message, but to argue that it's not part of it is just wrong.
if any part music conveys a sinful lifestyle or stirs up the flesh then it needs to be thrown away, whether that is sinful words OR sinful, carnal style itself.
While there may be some subjective aspects to music, there are certain objective affects that the music has to people as well.
Musical style is not simply just about preference, because if I were to be honest, I prefer electronic drug culture style of music, but because it's ungodly and satanic I reject it by conviction.
Basically what you are doing is denying the Spiritual nature of musical style, you are putting an overemphasis on the words.
1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
Contrast the above with this passage relating to when the children of Israel fell into fornication when Moses went up the mountain and came down:
17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.
18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.
25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies
Obviously there was a certain style of music the people craved when they were committing fornication and idolatry.
The two passages above clearly illustrate two different kinds of music that produce two different kinds of effects on the people listening.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
FrigidDev
Member
Someone said and I quote "the medium IS the message". I know that it plays a part, I wasn't denying that, just disproving that it was 100% the message.Well your first argument falls apart because it is a straw man.
No one said the medium is 100 percent of the message, but to argue that it's not part of it is just wrong.
if any part music conveys a sinful lifestyle or stirs up the flesh then it needs to be thrown away, whether that is sinful words OR sinful, carnal style itself.
While there may be some subjective aspects to music, there are certain objective affects that the music has to people as well.
Musical style is not simply just about preference, because if I were to be honest, I prefer electronic drug culture style of music, but because it's ungodly and satanic I reject it by conviction.
Basically what you are doing is denying the Spiritual nature of musical style, you are putting an overemphasis on the words.
1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
Contrast the above with this passage relating to when the children of Israel fell into fornication when Moses went up the mountain and came down:
17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.
18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.
25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies
Obviously there was a certain style of music the people craved when they were committing fornication and idolatry.
The two passages above clearly illustrate two different kinds of music that produce two different kinds of effects on the people listening.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
I don't think that the people "craved" a certain type of music, because they were being wicked. To say that would be quite the assumption. I think it's exactly what Moses says it is:
It wasn't a shout of victory, or cry of defeat, but people singing. He never says if it's an evil song, or anything at all really. Just says that they weren't having victory celebrations, or being depressed about defeat. That they were doing something else...singing.
It would probably be better to recognize that increased dopamine levels in the brain can be measured after listening to certain genres of music.
It has been suggested, and studies are under way to gather a body of evidence, that the drug addiction of so many rock stars is possibly due to the let down of dopamine levels after a music performance. They need to get that feeling back so they turn to drugs, many of which mimic dopamine reactions in the brain.
See:
Salimpoor VN, Benovoy M, Larcher K, Dagher A, & Zatorre RJ (2011). Anatomically Distinct Dopamine Release During Anticipation and Experience of Peak Emotion to Music. Nature Neuroscience, 14 (2), 257-262 PMID: 21217764.
FrigidDev
Member
200+ BPM is fast. Way faster than any "rock" song would produce.It would probably be better to recognize that increased dopamine levels in the brain can be measured after listening to certain genres of music.
It has been suggested, and studies are under way to gather a body of evidence, that the drug addiction of so many rock stars is possibly due to the let down of dopamine levels after a music performance. They need to get that feeling back so they turn to drugs, many of which mimic dopamine reactions in the brain.
See:
Salimpoor VN, Benovoy M, Larcher K, Dagher A, & Zatorre RJ (2011). Anatomically Distinct Dopamine Release During Anticipation and Experience of Peak Emotion to Music. Nature Neuroscience, 14 (2), 257-262 PMID: 21217764.
FrigidDev
Member
Also, if that's the case of the rock stars, then how come the entire fan base of the entire genre...aren't addicted to drugs as well? Hmm? I would be more inclined to think that it's the extremely sinful and lustful/sexual lifestyle that these stars live to blame for their drug use, not the tempo of the music they make...
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
My thoughts exactly as I thought the 'study' showed a flaw. Then it must beg the question is it the performing of the music that is linked to drug addiction? And, as you suggest, why aren't avid listeners addicted to drugs because they can't listen always and need to reproduce the high? Then another comes up, what of other music genres that lead to a dopamine high? Can a person listening to worship music experience this as well? Does this mean they will turn to dope to get the same high? Very doubtful. I don't buy into the study fully.
I think the rock musicians that use dope simply like to get stoned because they are sinners.
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
I would posit that if even one of them is bad, then all of it is bad. "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump".
I was hoping that I could reach you on a musical level, while simultaneously show you that I am not speaking from a purely emotional level. I have experience in music, both as a teacher and as a performer, and also as a composer. I am hoping that I can get you to see exactly where I'm coming from. Obviously the Bible doesn't state "x type of music is wrong", so we have to deduce based upon principles that we do know.
I'm pressed for time (and want to address the other parts of your post), so I can't find the exact studies. I just googled "music addictive" real quick, and a whole page came up of articles and studies which talk about general music addictiveness.
I never said that minor chords are bad. I said that their use of the minor chords goes contrary to what is beneficial to us as humans. I use minor chords all the time. Especially when using color chords. I've found, for example, that many songs allow you when transitioning from a I to a V, you can throw a ii in there to compliment the transition. Many well-known Christmas songs are in minor keys, such as "The Carol of the Bells", and "We Three Kings". But, you'll notice that these resolve in a sense. In "We Three Kings", there is a resolution by transitioning to the complementary major key in the chorus. In "Carol of the Bells", there is much less resolution, but listen to the very ending. Notice how there is no final resolution? And then when the song is over, you feel a sense of longing. A sense of longing for the beauty that you just heard. If an angry song leaves you a sense of longing, what are you longing for? Anger?
There's nothing wrong with a triple kick to accentuate a portion of the music. It's like using a highlighter. If you highlight an entire book, the highlighter loses its meaning. Also, repeated triple kicks effectively triple the speed at which you hear the rhythm. As you know, a typical drum pattern has a kick on the main beats (1,2,3,4). And you can gauge a BPM by the kick. However, a song that has 120 BPM, but has a triple kick continuously, has a driving force that our ears recognize as 360 BPM. Now, the rest of the music is still playing at 120 BPM, or using rapid 8th notes to simulate a 240 BPM. This engages our mind, disallowing our focus. This is why they use heavy metal in autistic children to help them with getting their focus off of one thing, and spreading their focus around. Similarly, they use slower music with autistic children in order to help them with speech therapy.
I wouldn't quite call that Satanic (my more "hardcore" bretheren would disagree with me), but I definitely don't believe it's Godly.
As I said, I don't have much time right now. But if you're genuinely curious, I'd encourage you to do some research for yourself and discover whether I'm right or wrong. Besides, research you discover on your own will convince you more than anything I could link would.
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