What caused Iniquity to be Found In Both satan/Adam?

[Winman]

Did Not know both jesus and paul were Manichean monks!

They weren't. It was Jesus who said the prodigal son was ALIVE AGAIN, which is impossible if a person is born dead in sin as you falsely teach.

And Paul said he was ALIVE without the law ONCE, it would be impossible to say we were ever alive if we are born dead in sin.

Maybe Augustine and Calvin told you that you were born dead in sin, but Jesus and Paul did not.

 

[JesusFan]

They weren't. It was Jesus who said the prodigal son was ALIVE AGAIN, which is impossible if a person is born dead in sin as you falsely teach.

And Paul said he was ALIVE without the law ONCE, it would be impossible to say we were ever alive if we are born dead in sin.

Maybe Augustine and Calvin told you that you were born dead in sin, but Jesus and Paul did not.

Guess that "all have sinned, fallen short of the glory of God"
That "ALL had died in Adam" really were not inspired in the Bible?

 

[Winman]

Guess that "all have sinned, fallen short of the glory of God"
That "ALL had died in Adam" really were not inspired in the Bible?

The scriptures do say that all have sinned, I do not deny that, I deny that we are BORN dead in sin. Babies cannot sin, they can barely do anything. Tell me a sin that a newborn baby is ABLE to commit.

And the scriptures DO NOT say all died in Adam, they say in Adam all die (future tense).

Instead of being a pull-string doll who repeats meaningless phrases over and over, why don't you study the scriptures?

 

[freeatlast]

have flesh/sin principle Same concept different terminology!

Jesus had flesh.

 

[The Biblicist]

So what makes you think Adam or satan could not have lusts (desires)? Jesus was tempted and the same scripture says; But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Also in the case of satan I am not sure that passage can be applied to him. He was never a man. Like I said he was his own temptation and acted on free will to carry it out while Adam was tempted through another then acting on free will (choice) to carry it out.

The term "lust" does not convey good or bad as the good or bad application is determined by the context in which the word "lust" is found. The same term describes objects of lust that are good and holy.

The term "lust" simply means "desire" and all rational creatures have ability to "desire" because "desire" is merely the driving motive behind all acts of choice. If a creature is capable of choice it is because they are capable of desire as desire is foundational for choice to exist. Your choice is determined by the precedent of desire and desire is produced in the heart (mind/feelings) in response to something that provides appeal to your mind and heart (temptations). Hence, the interaction of temptation with your heart produces desires which in turn motivate a choice. Choice is merely the manifest expression of desires originating in your heart (mind/intellect) in response to a given temptation.

In regard to pre-fallen Adam or any other pre-fallen created being that is capable of choice, in particular moral choices, sin is conceived in the heart when the heart (mind/intellect) not merely entertains/considers an external temptation that is by definition wrong, but consideration yeilds to desire that is in turn is manifested by choice to obtain what has been embraced in the heart (mind/feelings).


How is sin conceived in a pre-fallen Adam versus a post-fallen Adam? In the pre-fallen Adam sin has no existence in the heart from the origin of Adam as Adam was created "upright" and therefore without an internal existence of sin. Therefore, for sin to be conceived in the heart of a pre-fallen Adam it requires an EXTERNAL temptation to be brought into the heart for consideration. After that point there is no difference.

However, the post-fallen Adam needs no external temptation to bring sin into the heart for consideration but sin already exists in the heart of the Post-fallen Adam and his posterity from birth. The Post-fallen Adam is separated from God and his heart is dominated by sin that Pre-fallen Adam gave permission to enter and indwell him. This is clearly spelled out by Paul in Romans 7:14-20 in regard to the "flesh." Hence, he is in double jepordy from within and without. This same description in Romans 7:14-20 is not merely true of the Post-fallen Adam but is true of all his posertity from birth. No rational decision is necessary for post-fallen posterity of Adam to allow sin into their hearts because it was by the representative OFFENCE by ONE MAN that all were made sinners by nature from birth with sin already indwelling their heart.

Babies do not have an innocent heart. They manifest the influence of indwelling sin even before they can reason or talk.

 

[freeatlast]

As BOTH of them were originally created by god to be w/u sin being found in them...

What caused them to create their initial sin against God?

Personal choice, free will. In the case of Adam it was preceded with a temptation then he exercised free will. In the case of satan he was his own temptation and also exercised free will.

 

[freeatlast]

The term "lust" does not convey good or bad as the good or bad application is determined by the context in which the word "lust" is found. The same term describes objects of lust that are good and holy.

The term "lust" simply means "desire" and all rational creatures have ability to "desire" because "desire" is merely the driving motive behind all acts of choice. If a creature is capable of choice it is because they are capable of desire as desire is foundational for choice to exist. Your choice is determined by the precedent of desire and desire is produced in the heart (mind/feelings) in response to something that provides appeal to your mind and heart (temptations). Hence, the interaction of temptation with your heart produces desires which in turn motivate a choice. Choice is merely the manifest expression of desires originating in your heart (mind/intellect) in response to a given temptation.

In regard to pre-fallen Adam or any other pre-fallen created being that is capable of choice, in particular moral choices, sin is conceived in the heart when the heart (mind/intellect) not merely entertains/considers an external temptation that is by definition wrong, but consideration yeilds to desire that is in turn is manifested by choice to obtain what has been embraced in the heart (mind/feelings).


How is sin conceived in a pre-fallen Adam versus a post-fallen Adam? In the pre-fallen Adam sin has no existence in the heart from the origin of Adam as Adam was created "upright" and therefore without an internal existence of sin. Therefore, for sin to be conceived in the heart of a pre-fallen Adam it requires an EXTERNAL temptation to be brought into the heart for consideration. After that point there is no difference.

However, the post-fallen Adam needs no external temptation to bring sin into the heart for consideration but sin already exists in the heart of the Post-fallen Adam and his posterity from birth. The Post-fallen Adam is separated from God and his heart is dominated by sin that Pre-fallen Adam gave permission to enter and indwell him. This is clearly spelled out by Paul in Romans 7:14-20 in regard to the "flesh." This same description in Romans 7:14-20 is not merely true of the Post-fallen Adam but is true of all his posertity from birth. No rational decision is necessary for post-fallen posterity of Adam to allow sin into their hearts because it was by the representative OFFENCE by ONE MAN that all were made sinners by nature from birth with sin already indwelling their heart.

Babies do not have an innocent heart. They manifest the influence of indwelling sin even before they can reason or talk.

Like I said;
Personal choice, free will. In the case of Adam it was preceded with a temptation then he exercised free will. In the case of satan he was his own temptation and also exercised free will.

 

[The Biblicist]

Like I said;
Personal choice, free will. In the case of Adam it was preceded with a temptation then he exercised free will. In the case of satan he was his own temptation and also exercised free will.

You need to reread what I said. In the pre-fallen Adam yes. In the post fallen Adam - no! The prefallen Adam possessed a heart free from sin but not so with the Post-fallen Adam and his posterity. The will is not capable of expressing any choice that is not produced as a desire by the heart (mind/feelings) because the will gives only expression of what is INSIDE man. The heart INSIDE man is dominated by sin and therefore so are all his motives/desires and the will does not operate distinct and indepdent from what HE IS according to His heart.

 

[freeatlast]

You need to reread what I said. In the pre-fallen Adam yes. In the post fallen Adam - no! The prefallen Adam possessed a heart free from sin but not so with the Post-fallen Adam and his posterity. The will is not capable of expressing any choice that is not produced as a desire by the heart (mind/feelings) because the will gives only expression of what is INSIDE man. The heart INSIDE man is dominated by sin and therefore so are all his motives/desires and the will does not operate distinct and indepdent from what HE IS according to His heart.

I am not sure I understand the coonection to the OP. I agree that no lost person can do a good deed that is done for the right reason, but are you saying that a lost person cannot do a good deed in practice?

 

[The Biblicist]

I am not sure I understand the coonection to the OP. I agree that no lost person can do a good deed that is done for the right reason, but are you saying that a lost person cannot do a good deed in practice?

Every deed is judged by its motive! The only right biblical motive is to do all things for the glory of God - everything else is not good but sin.

 

[freeatlast]

Every deed is judged by its motive! The only right biblical motive is to do all things for the glory of God - everything else is not good but sin.

So your point in regards to the OP?

 

[The Biblicist]

So your point in regards to the OP?

Isn't it obvious what my point is if you understand what I wrote? Free will is the author of sin in Adam bringing sin INTO man's heart to dwell, whereas, in the fallen Adam and his poserterity indwelling sin in the heart is the author of sin and the will is merely the servant of an evil heart that expresses the desires of the heart.

 

[freeatlast]

Isn't it obvious what my point is if you understand what I wrote? Free will is the author of sin in Adam bringing sin INTO man's heart to dwell, whereas, in the fallen Adam and his poserterity indwelling sin in the heart is the author of sin and the will is merely the servant of an evil heart that expresses the desires of the heart.

You seem to want it two ways but it is just not true. If Adam's heart was good and he sinned because of free will then if fallen man's heart is evil he can also choose not to sin by free will. In other words if a good heart can by free will choose against God then an evil heart can choose for God also from free will.
But again what does this have to with thee OP at least the part about fallen man?

 

[The Biblicist]

You seem to want it two ways but it is just not true. If Adam's heart was good and he sinned because of free will then if fallen man's heart is evil he can also choose not to sin by free will. In other words if a good heart can by free will choose against God then an evil heart can choose for God also from free will.
But again what does this have to with thee OP at least the part about fallen man?

You are missing my point altogether. The will of man in Adam was FREE from indwelling sin but it was that very FREEDOM by brought sin into the heart and robbed that freedom from the will.

Before the fall the heart of Adam was "upright" and therefore FREE from indwelling sin and the will FREE from any internal influence by sin.

After the fall the heart of Adam was NOT "upright" and therefore NOT FREE from indwelling sin and therefore the will is NOT FREE from any internal influence of sin.

The will cannot express anything EXTERNAL to himself. The will simply expresses INTERNAL desires and the fallen man's heart is under the influence of sin and is wicked and has NO DESIRES that by motive glorify God and so ALL HIS DESIRES are sinful and the WILL is only FREE to express such desires as there are no other desires resident in fallen man.

Hence, Before the Fall there was FREE will but after the fall the only freedom the will possesses is the freedom to express the sinful desires of the human heart. This is the BONDAGE OF SIN.

 

[freeatlast]

You are missing my point altogether. The will of man in Adam was FREE from indwelling sin but it was that very FREEDOM by brought sin into the heart and robbed that freedom from the will.

Before the fall the heart of Adam was "upright" and therefore FREE from indwelling sin and the will FREE from any internal influence by sin.

After the fall the heart of Adam was NOT "upright" and therefore NOT FREE from indwelling sin and therefore the will is NOT FREE from any internal influence of sin.

The will cannot express anything EXTERNAL to himself. The will simply expresses INTERNAL desires and the fallen man's heart is under the influence of sin and is wicked and has NO DESIRES that by motive glorify God and so ALL HIS DESIRES are sinful and the WILL is only FREE to express such desires as there are no other desires resident in fallen man.

Hence, Before the Fall there was FREE will but after the fall the only freedom the will possesses is the freedom to express the sinful desires of the human heart. This is the BONDAGE OF SIN.

Like I said you want it one way, but it does not work like that. If good can choose evil then evil can choose good. Adam chose against God while in a stated of being only good. Now man who is only evil can choose for God while being in a state if evil by free will. Both are at work.

 

[The Biblicist]

Like I said you want it one way, but it does not work like that. If good can choose evil then evil can choose good. Adam chose against God while in a stated of being only good. Now man who is only evil can choose for God while being in a state if evil by free will. Both are at work.

I will break down what I said for you to grasp it. Prefallen Adam was created FREE from indwelling sin and it was FREE WILL that is responsible for INDWELLING SIN.

Post-fallen Adam is NOT FREE from indwelling sin and indwelling sin RULES over Post-fallen Adam including his will and this is what the Scriptures identify as the BONDAGE OF SIN!

Can't say it much clearer than this. There is no such thing as FREE WILL or will that is FREE from the power of indwelling sin in fallen men.

 

[Winman]

Everything Biblicist said is easily refuted by Jesus himself.

Luk 6:33 And if you do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

It is true that Jesus is saying that it is better to do good to those who have not done good toward us, but nevertheless, Jesus said sinners CAN and DO good.

 

[freeatlast]

I will break down what I said for you to grasp it. Prefallen Adam was created FREE from indwelling sin and it was FREE WILL that is responsible for INDWELLING SIN.

Post-fallen Adam is NOT FREE from indwelling sin and indwelling sin RULES over Post-fallen Adam including his will and this is what the Scriptures identify as the BONDAGE OF SIN!

Can't say it much clearer than this. There is no such thing as FREE WILL or will that is FREE from the power of indwelling sin in fallen men.

I would agree with you IF God was not involved but He is and because of that free will becomes possible for the unsaved. If we could not choose to turn to God we could not choose to reject His offer and we can do both.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Pre-fall Adam had free will, and post fall Adam does also.

 

[The Biblicist]

Everything Biblicist said is easily refuted by Jesus himself.

Luk 6:33 And if you do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

It is true that Jesus is saying that it is better to do good to those who have not done good toward us, but nevertheless, Jesus said sinners CAN and DO good.

As usual you jerk a text out of the context. Go back to the beginning of this sermon and see who it is that Jesus is said to be explicitly addressing! Not lost people but HIS DISCIPLES and in particular the apostles.

Mt. 5:1 ¶ And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

He is addressing those who already confessed faith in the coming Messiah and submitted to the baptism of John and were added to the traveling assembly of Christ (Jn. 1:29; Acts 1:21-22; 19:5.

 

[Winman]

As usual you jerk a text out of the context. Go back to the beginning of this sermon and see who it is that Jesus is said to be explicitly addressing! Not lost people but HIS DISCIPLES and in particular the apostles.

Mt. 5:1 ¶ And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

He is addressing those who already confessed faith in the coming Messiah and submitted to the baptism of John and were added to the traveling assembly of Christ (Jn. 1:29; Acts 1:21-22; 19:5.

It doesn't matter who Jesus was speaking to, he said that sinners do good.

According to your distorted view, it would be just as sinful for an unsaved person to tell the truth as it would be to lie! This is utter NONSENSE. Only someone who has rationalized their common sense away could believe such an absurdity. This would render God's commands as meaningless and unnecessary, because everything an unsaved person would do would be sin, therefore it is unnecessary to have law. This is how Calvinism distorts reason!

And God himself said men have free will.

Lev 1:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

God said ANY man could give a sacrifice of his OWN VOLUNTARY WILL. That is free will friend.

But I guess you know better than God.