What caused Iniquity to be Found In Both satan/Adam?

No one denies that the most evil men can do "good" in the eyes of other men or horizontal goodness and that is what Jesus is referring to between men.

However, when it comes to doing "good" by God's standard Jesus says "there is no good BUT ONE and that is God" and he is saying this to a person who wants to do "good" in order to please God and obtain eternal life.

 

First, again he is addressing the professed people of God not professed lost people.

Second, No one denies that man is capable of exercising his will in keeping with his own desires. However, whether that willingess is "good" in God's sight is entirely a different story as God determines that by looking at his motive for what he willingly does.

Your whole position rests upon pitting scripture against scripture and ignoring obvious logical and scriptural contradictions to your system of thinking.

 

Like all good Calvinists, now you backpedal because it is obvious unsaved people do good. When a person rushes into a burning house to rescue a child screaming for help, everyone knows that person has given up regard for himself to help another. Yet you call it sin!

If everything a person does is sin, God's commands are non-sensical. God should have said, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, NEITHER SHALT THOU TELL THE TRUTH. Utter nonsense.

Calvinism perverts the definition of sin, sin is the transgression of the law, it is an act. But in Calvinism people themselves are sin. You are a sinner through no fault or personal choice, but simply because you were unfortunate enough to be conceived by your parents.

If Calvinism is true, we are not responsible for our actions, as we are only doing what we could possibly do. This doctrine simply shifts responsibility from man to God, just as Adam blamed his sin on God for giving him Eve.

If you want to believe this nonsense, that is your freewill choice.

 

I have not backpeddled a single step! I have just distinguished between things that differ in scripture. Christ says "there is none that is good" and you claim there is. Paul says there is "none good, no not one" but you claim there is. Both of these denials are in the context of justification before God and what God regards to be "good" as defined by His Law and in regard to obtaining eternal life.

On the other hand, your illustrations and texts have NOTHING to do with "good" as God sees it in regard to His own law or to the difference between heaven and hell.

YOur example about the fireman, and all other such examples you may draw out of your hat are foolish and easily proven to be foolish.

God judges by the motive of the heart and the ONLY MOTIVE that makes anything "good" in God's sight is "WHATSOEVER you do, do ALL to the glory of God."

QUESTION: if you fireman is a LOST man can you prove that his selflish action was for the GLORY OF GOD??

Your position is not mere foolishness, as it openly contradicts the scriptures but it is irrational an nonsensical because you are forced to pit scripture against scripture and illustrations against scripture.

 

Careful there, Brother Winman. You're getting too far into the forest. You know, the part where the trees are blocking the view of the forest.

 

I shouldn't have stooped to his level. His type cannot discuss issues without attacking the person they are discussing because they have no substance to offer so they liter their posts with demeaning adjectives "foolish" "nonsense" and the like.

 

Look Brother, no one on here has stated that man is "good". However, men can do good things. A man steps into the road to push a child out of the way of a car, is this a good deed? Sure. He put that child's life ahead of his own. If he dies, being a sinner, will it save him? Nope. That's what is being said here. No amount of good deeds saves a man. If so, then Grace is not a gift, but earned. And none of us here think this way. Apostle Paul stated this so poignantly(sp?).

1 Corinthians 13:2-4
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

 

Did you read my response to Winman's illustration of the fireman? If not please read it. I never have denied that relatively speaking between men there are things that men recognize as "good." However, that is not God's standard to define "good." God looks at the heart to see the motive behind all that we do and there is ONLY ONE motive that God accepts for anything we do to be "good" in his sight - "whatsoever ye do in word and in deed, do ALL for the GLORY of God."

Jesus says it is impossible for a bad tree to bring forth "GOOD" fruit does he not?

Job asks how anything good can come out of something evil and then answer his question "not one" - Job 14:4

Again, Paul is addressing already saved Spirit indwelt, born again people with new hearts by regeneration - not lost people.

Lost people are incapable of AGAPE love. They are capable of all manner of various other kinds of love but not AGAPE love because AGAPE love originates with God and must be given by God and lost people are not given the ability to love as AGAPE love is first to love the Lord thy God with all that is within you and your neighbor as yourself.

 

When Jesus said there is none good, he was speaking of 100% perfection. We are compared to God, the scriptures say we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God.

It only takes one sin to be evil, just as you only have to murder one person to be a murderer, or rob one bank to be a bank robber. Adam was very good until he committed sin, then he was evil. That does not mean he could not do good afterward, in fact we know he did good when he came to God when he was called. This was faith, this was trust. God had told him he would die the day he sinned, he had every reason to believe God would kill him, yet he trusted in the goodness and mercy of God and came when called.

Paul is saying the same. He does not say we are born evil, he says we have become evil.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are altogether become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Again, Paul is comparing us to God, God is the standard against which we are judged. Only God IS and does 100% good.

But Paul doesn't say we are born evil, he says we have GONE OUT of the way, we have BECOME unprofitable.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of yours souls.

What does "going astray" mean? It means to run away or leave the flock. You cannot go astray from a flock in which you never belonged.

What does "returned" mean? It means to come back to a place you once were, you cannot return to some place you have never been.

The scriptures DO NOT teach we are born sinners separated from God.

 

I want to take each part of your post and deal with it separately.

What you say above is true but it is not the entire truth.

The reason that it only takes "one point" to violate the whole Law is because God judges sin not merely by actions but by attitude of the heart and that is precisely why covetuousness is sin.

God judges all actions by the MOTIVE producing the action. The ONLY motive that God accepts as "good" ONLY ONE motive for doing "ALL" that you do and that is it must be "FOR the glory of God." Anything and everything that "comes short of the glory of God" is sin. Hence sin must be defined by omission equally as by commission. When Adam sinned it was completed when motive (sin conceived) and action (sin birthed) were brought to completion by free will.

Infants do everything, and I mean everything for self-centered motives and will continue to do so until they are born again as only the new birth gives a heart that seeks to please God. Selfishness, pride, hate are all bound up in the heart of every child and they by nature live to please only themselves and must be taught to do "good" in the sight of their parents. However, they do not need to be taught or trained to be selfish, hateful, angry, covetous as that comes BY BIRTH.

 

Your whole logic here has a fatal flaw. You are presuming that the prefallen Adam is the role model to explain the operation of the will in post-fallen Adam.

In the fall, sin was "conceived" in the human heart and brought to fruition (birthed) in the act of eating the fruit. Thus sin is inclusive of both the heart motive/attitude and the action which the human will is the modus operandi for completing. The will stands between motive and act. Evil external temptation was the tool of Satan for sin to be conceived INTERNALLY within the heart of Adam. So FREE WILL is responsible for completing the union of sinful motive with sinful action. Once, that union was formed between motive and action by FREE WILL sin separated Adam from God in the day he ate and at the specific point he ate. He at that precise time was spiritually dead (separated) from the life of God spiritully and had need of SPIRITUAL LIFE or quickening just as we do (Eph. 2:1). He was spiritually "dead in tresspasses and sins" and physical death was in process (aging, disease, decay) and would eventually evolve into separation of the spirit from the body and in the resurrection be cast spirit and body into gehenna or eternal separation from God. These things are mere "fundementals" or the "a,b,c's" of elementary Biblical truths.


However, at the instant Adam fell into sin, sin came to indwell the heart of Adam by the consummation and permission of FREE WILL. From that point forward Sin dominates the heart of Adam. From that point forward the will serves to express the INTERNAL state of man. That INTERNAL state is the BONDAGE OF SIN.

Post fallen Adam is already evil and his heart is dominated by sin and his will cannot express anything EXTERNAL to the internal state of man as the will serves only to express the desires of the heart.

Hence, the post fallen Adam is a "bad" tree and Jesus says a "bad" tree "cannot" bring forth "good" fruit but you say it can?

Job says

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

But you say all can! The discrepancy between your opinion and the Scriptures is because you fail to discern that God regards everything sin which is done from the only right motive - "for the glory of God."

This is exactly why you use illustrations about the fireman giving his life to defend your position because you don't care to examine the motive behind that deed in God's sight only in human sight.

 

Show me where Jesus ever spoke evil of children, I can show you where he spoke good of them.

Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

So, are we to believe Jesus was saying we need to be converted and become wicked sinners to enter heaven? Absurd.

And does God assign angels to look over wicked sinners? The scriptures say the exact opposite, as even Satan knew when he tempted Jesus to cast himself off the temple.

Again, this shows how Calvinism has twisted the thoughts of otherwise rational men.

 

According to your theory, the infant or small child that is unable to discern between right and wrong must become evil and therefore are pure like the heart of pre-fallen Adam.

Not even human observation supports this theory. I have had five children and before they could even walk or talk they displayed evil by nature. They were totally selfish, defiant, hateful, covetuousness and many times enjoyed hurting others and did so intentionally. In contrast, they had to be taught and trained by painful consequences to do good.

Observationally, it is simple to prove they had no such pure heart or motives but were committed to pure selfishness and covetuous from birth.

 

1 Peter 2:25 is addressed to born again children of God who were introduced in this epistle as those who could know their election by the way the gospel did not come versus how it did come to them (1 Pet. 1:4-5).

Paul uses a simile here noted by the word "as." A simile is used to make specific stated comparisons rather then comprehensive comparisons.

For example, he is not inferring they were previously "sheep" by nature prior to their conversion to the Gospel because they were "even as others" who were "by nature children of wrath" and "disobedience" (Eph. 2:2-3). They received that nature from birth.

The only way they could be regarded "sheep" previous to regeneration was by God's eternal purpose (Rom. 8:28-31) but not in regard to their nature. Hence, the only way they could be regarded previously as part of God's fold was by redemption design but not by participation or by nature as they were previously "by nature children of wrath."

Observation of infants prove they were by sinners by nature from birth. However, you theory would demand they come into the world with a Prefallen heart like Adam - pure and undefiled by sin. The facts of observation and common sense completely deny that.

The points of comparison are they "went astray" and now have "returned."

All human beings are born sinful and as soon as they are capable of discerning right from wrong they go "astray" from the revelation written upon their conscience, in nature and in being confronted with special revelation.

 

Five children? You are an amateur, I have eight.

And yes, the scriptures show little children are not responsible until they understand right and wrong before God and knowingly and willingly commit sin. See Deut 1:39, Isa 7:16, Jon 4:11 for starters, I can show you more if you wish, but if you do not believe these, you will not believe if I show you a hundred scriptures.

But you gladly believe Augustine and Calvin.

 

Again this is the use of a simile noted by the word "as" in verse 3. Similes are never used to make comprehensive comparisons but only comparisons specifically listed or inferred by the context.

The disciples were arguing about who would be the greatest in heaven (v. 1). The specific comparison is found in the word "humble" in verse 4.

Here, Jesus is neither asserting or denying that children are without sin.

 

I have never read or studied either. I was raised to be a stauch free willer.

However, you simply side stepped the problem I presented you. I did not argue about the point of responsibility. I argued that children are BY NATURE from birth evil and it is self-evident by their actions.

Your position, if consistent would demand that infants and small children have the pure heart of the pre-fallen Adam, which would equally demand they are OBEDIENT and righteous by nature as Adam was created "upright." Find that in any one of your eight children from birth to the age of accountability?

 

Win so if children are not fallen how do they become fallen?

 

They knowingly and willingly sin as shown in the story of the prodigal son. He knowingly and willingly left his father's house and entered into a life of sin. The parable then said he joined himself to a citizen of that far country, this represents Satan and becoming a child of the devil. But he came to himself (no magical regeneration was required) and returned home to his father. His father saw him a great way off, this is foreknowledge. When the boy returned he confessed his sin. His father put a new coat on him representing the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, he put a ring on his finger showing our adoption and sonship, and he put new shoes on his feet representing our new walk as Christians. Then twice Jesus said the boy was ALIVE AGAIN. Jesus knows doctrine better than Augustine and Calvin, we could not be said to be ALIVE AGAIN if we were born in sin separated from God. The boy didn't start out separated from his father, he lived at home with his father. He left of his own free will choice.

This is not a story of a backslider, the three parables in Luke 15 are one, and they are all talking about a person being lost in sin, repenting and being born again.

Luke 15

1 .) Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2 .) And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 .) And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4 .) What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 .) And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 .) And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 .) I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
8 .) Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
9 .) And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
10 .) Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
11 .) And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 .) And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 .) And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 .) And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 .) And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 .) And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 .) And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 .) I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 .) And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 .) And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 .) And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 .) But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 .) And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 .) For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 .) Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 .) And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 .) And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 .) And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 .) And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 .) But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 .) And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 .) It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

If you apply a little thought you will figure out who the elder son who was ALWAYS with the father, and whom everything belonged to, and who is the brother of the prodigal son. You can figure it out.

 

So wouldn't your view mean, that everyone prior to the giving of the law of Moses, they never sinned and they all went to heaven. Remember where there is no law there is no sin. Romand 4:15