What CHURCH?

[Helen]

Richard, I think Paul answers your question in Ephesians 2:19-21:

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

 

[Dave Taylor]

Richard wrote:

"It sounds to me..."

This would be a good time to fix your misunderstanding of Matthew 16 which has snowballed into all kinds of problems...


"lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." Proverbs 3:5

Ephesians 2, as Helen listed above gives the answer!

and

I Peter 2:5 "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner"

and

Isaiah 28:16 "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste."


and

Proverbs 10:25 "the righteous is an everlasting foundation."

and

Psalms 118:19 "Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity. Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD. God is the LORD, which hath shewed us light"

 

[TexasSky]

In the Greek "Peter" is written as "petros" and the work "rock" is Petra.

There are a lot of theories of what was meant:

That the foundation of the church would the apostles. That Peter himself was the foundation. That the foundation was the faith Peter displayed when He stated that Christ is the Son of the Living God.

I think it is the latter.

I think the Church's Foundation is Faith In Christ.

 

[Johnv]

Jesus says "You are the rock, and upon this rock, I will build my church". Jesus was not talking about himself in that passage, he was talking about Peter. Now, what that means is open to debate.

 

[Charles Meadows]

I think the "rock" is pretty clearly Peter. Anything else wouldn't seem to make sense as well.

I think we as protestants have always argued AGAINST Peter being the rock because (more than anything) that would be "opening the door" to papal authority.

While the Greek words are different (petros, petra) I think Peter is still the best option. A good parallel can be seen in the midrashim, in which God tells Abraham that he is like a rock, and "on this rock I will build a nation."

 

[Gold Dragon]

I'd like to talk about the word gate. Does a gate have an offensive or defensive function?

When Jesus' uses the imagery of "the gates of hell shall not prevail", who is doing the attacking and who is doing the defending?

How does this compare to how this verse is traditionally understood?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Dave Taylor,

Great to see you posted here again!!!

I am glad you come and stop visit this forum for a while. PLease come visit us again someday. God bless you!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20- Amen!

 

[richard n koustas]

The 'rock' is the fact in Peter's statement "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus will build His church upon the fact that He IS the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And, maybe i'm leaning a bit on my own understanding, but i still do not see anything in the verses quoted in this thread to indicate that the 'church' (that Jesus 'will build' (future tense) in matt. 16:18) includes OT saints.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by richard n koustas:
The 'rock' is the fact in Peter's statement "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus will build His church upon the fact that He IS the Christ, the Son of the living God.

We non-Catholics have this affinity for requiring the most literal interpretation of scripture, but when that literalness might appear in the lest bit "catholic", we back off. This is one example. Jesus literally said "You are the rock, and upon this rock I will build my church". He did not say "your statement is teh rock, and upon that rock I will build my church".

Sure, it's open to interpretation, but I think this exemplifies ho we can be a bit inconsistent with our own interpretive scriptural views.

 

[richard n koustas]

so, then some archeologist will someday find Peters remains under some first century building.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Helen:
Richard, I think Paul answers your question in Ephesians 2:19-21:

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

If only people would read and believe this passage of Scripture.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Helen does make an interesting point here. Jesus is certainly the cornerstone. But the verse also speaks about a foundation (apostles).

It just seems out of sync with the context (an approving statement directed at Peter) to see the "rock" in this verse as anything but Peter.

And the midrashim give us an example of building on a Godly man as a foundation for a nation of believers.

 

[garpier]

There are several problems that I have with a church in the OT. First the meaning of the word ekklesia. As described in Acts 19 an ekklesia is an assembly called out for a particualar purpose. In the first century it referred to a local visible assembly, not an invisible one.

Second the method of entrance into a local New Testament church was the baptism of believer. I don't see this anywhere in the Old Testament.

Third, regarding Ephesians 2: 19-21 which was written to a local asssembly, the apostles are New Testament offices, not Old Testament and the prophets referred to are also New Testament. (see Ephesians 4:11-12)

There is a difference between the church of God and the family (household) of God All members of a local church who are saved are members of the family of God, but not all members of the family (household) of God are memebers of the New Testament church.

 

[richard n koustas]

garpier

There is a difference between the church of God and the family (household) of God All members of a local church who are saved are members of the family of God, but not all members of the family (household) of God are memebers of the New Testament church.

well said...

 

[Charles Meadows]

Garpier,

I don't know that we should use diachronic analysis of Greek to determine the meaning of "ekklesia" here, especially when it is likely a rendering of something in Aramaic (anta hu keppa, w'al keppa denah ebneh... or something like that).

I still think the best analogy is the yalqut sh'moni midrash with God telling Abraham he was the rock on which He would build a nation. In addition the Hebrew of that midrash uses "petra", a well-known Greek "loan word" instead of the more traditional Hebrew "tsur" - thus Jesus' use of "petra".

 

[garpier]

Charles,

I use the Greek ekklesia because it is the original language of the New Testament. To argue a New Testament truth in a different language is not a wise thing to do because then you are placing a translation above the original.

Also there is still the matter of entrance into the New Testament church (baptism)which is not found in the Old Testament.

I am not discounting the importance of the word "rock" in the Old Testament, I am simply saying the church is a New Testament institution and not found in the Old Testament.

Would you be so kind as to show me the verse where God tells Abraham that he was the rock on which He would build a nation? I took a quick look but couldn't find it. Thanks.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Garpier,

The story regarding Abraham is from the rabbinic midrashim, not the Bible. It is interesting because it gives precedent for:

1. God using a man as a "founding figure" of a people.

2. the use of "petra" for the rock, thus the reason why Jesus uses 2 different words for rock; petros because it is Peter's name and petra because it was a loan word in middle Hebrew and was used in a traditional story with which Jesus and the disciples could have been aware.

Regarding "ekklesia" - it is certainly a translation of the word Jesus uttered, either Aramaic or Hebrew. Ekklesia does come from "ek" and "kalew" - but that does not limit its meaning to a group of people "called out".

The key to understaning this is simple context.

 

[rufus]

Bump

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
Helen does make an interesting point here. Jesus is certainly the cornerstone. But the verse also speaks about a foundation (apostles).

It just seems out of sync with the context (an approving statement directed at Peter) to see the "rock" in this verse as anything but Peter.

But Peter was not even head of any of the NT churches, was he? In what way was Peter the "rock" that Jesus built his church on?

(I tend to agree with others that the rock is his confession of faith in Christ that all believers in the church share).

 

[IveyLeaguer]

Originally posted by Marcia:
But Peter was not even head of any of the NT churches, was he? In what way was Peter the "rock" that Jesus built his church on? .. (I tend to agree with others that the rock is his confession of faith in Christ that all believers in the church share).

I have to agree, that's what the context says to me .. "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."