What CHURCH?

[Charles Meadows]

But Jesus said, "you are rock, and on this rock I will build my church." And before that He said that the Father had revealed the truth to Peter.

Anyway you slice it it's against context to see it as anything other than Peter. I think that most protestant Christians are conditioned to see it as NOT Peter because that would seem to lend legitimacy to the RCC's papacy.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
But Jesus said, "you are rock, and on this rock I will build my church." And before that He said that the Father had revealed the truth to Peter.

Anyway you slice it it's against context to see it as anything other than Peter. I think that most protestant Christians are conditioned to see it as NOT Peter because that would seem to lend legitimacy to the RCC's papacy.

Regardless of what you think of the context isn't it ridiculous to believe that Jesus Christ was going to build His Church, for which He died, on a man?

 

[Charles Meadows]

Oldreg,

Regardless of what you think of the context isn't it ridiculous to believe that Jesus Christ was going to build His Church, for which He died, on a man?

Didn't He? Peter, James, Paul, Barnabas etc were the vessels used by Christ to spread His gospel and "build His church."

You seem to approach this with a preconceived answer, BEFORE even examining the context.

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
But Jesus said, "you are rock, and on this rock I will build my church." And before that He said that the Father had revealed the truth to Peter.

Anyway you slice it it's against context to see it as anything other than Peter. I think that most protestant Christians are conditioned to see it as NOT Peter because that would seem to lend legitimacy to the RCC's papacy.

Peter was not the man that Christ was speaking of, upon which He would build His church.

There is a play on words in the original Greek. Christ says to Peter "you are Peter or a little stone (petros), but upon this big rock (petra) I will build my church. Christ was speaking of Himself as the corner stone of the church.

Christ was using this play upon words to show that a boulder-like truth came from the mouth of a small stone like Peter.

God would use men like Peter, to build His church, but Christ is the foundation. That is what this passage is speaking about.

Compare this to what Peter himself writes in his 1 epistle. He tells his readers that the church is built of living stones in 1Pt. 2:5. Those who confess Jesus the Son of God, just like Peter had. Then in verse 6-7 of that same chapter he explains how Christ is the foundation or "chief cornerstone".

 

[IveyLeaguer]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:

But Jesus said, "you are rock, and on this rock I will build my church." And before that He said that the Father had revealed the truth to Peter.

Anyway you slice it it's against context to see it as anything other than Peter. I think that most protestant Christians are conditioned to see it as NOT Peter because that would seem to lend legitimacy to the RCC's papacy.

Maybe some do. Personally, I never worry about the implications of God's truth - I'm always content to let the Word fall where it will and step on whatever it steps on. But even if we accept that interpretation it's hardly enough to legitimize the RCC as it's easy enough to discern the next 25 unscriptural things.

I'm no Greek scholar but if if the first 'rock' in that statement were the same word as the second 'rock' in that statement it would cause me to go back and methodically rule out the interpretation that says Peter is the 'rock' upon which the church is built. I once heard one of my teachers say, either Chuck Smith or Sproul, that the meaning for the word Peter (Petros) is more like a stone whereas the meaning of the word used for the church (petra) is more like a giant mass of rock. I don't know but a quick look at Strong's would seem to bear that out. So, I think of it as (IveyLeaguer's paraphrase which I don't recommend) Jesus saying: "Your name means rock (Petros), and that is well-suited because on that rock(petra) - the declaration that I AM WHO I AM, Almighty God in human flesh, the Redeemer of those who through faith believe that I AM WHO I AM, the Christ of the scriptures, the Son of the Living God - on that rock I will build my church.

There would be other issues as well, it seems to me. Jesus, the 'chief cornerstone' for example. And the idea that God would build his church upon a man as OldRegular pointed out. Peter has his foundational position in the church that the Lord gave him along with the other apostles. Think of it this way - if the church were built on Peter, how would it not crumble? What do we know about Peter that indicates he is that solid? Why would God have sent Paul to rebuke and correct him face to face? And on and on ....

 

[Benjamin]

The way I see it all these men being spoken of were in the same Church, including also the prophets being spoke of in Eph 2:19-20 built upon the foundation of the Deliverer and His promise. The Gospel.

Baptism is a show of faith and lead by the Spirit to bring us to believe in the promise (Gospel of God) of the Deliverer. In the OT the Spirit of faith put them on the right side of the gulf waiting for the Deliverer (because they were in the Church), while Jesus was with them it was a show of faith in the Deliverer that He was here with them now (because they were in the Church), for us it is a show of faith that the Deliverer has now set us free (because we are in the Church).

Seems to me Baptism is a show of faith in the Deliverer and a sign that the Spirit is in those of the Church, whether the Deliverer is coming, here, or left and coming back.

I think the following verses hold true that if any are in the faith (Baptism) however it happens, of the Spirit at any time, that through the Deliverer (Son of God) we are saved “together” being in the Church. (those having the Spirit of faith in the Deliverer)

(Joh 15:1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

(Joh 15:2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

(Joh 15:3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

(Joh 15:4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

(Joh 15:5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


I am the true vine (only way-Deliverer)…Every branch in me (having the Spirit of faith in the Deliverer)…explained, my “Father” is the husbandman…Abide in me (Son, live through the deliverer), and I (through Spirit of faith) in you.

Just seems simple that Everything works together here through God-Trinities Gospel for the One Church (those of faith)

Now we are clean through the Word of God (glory to that, by having faith in the Word (God’s Gospel promise) now sinless, through the Word (also Deliverer) through the Spirit in Him and now delivered)

The promise of the Father to the Son, the promise from the Son to us, the HS giving us faith in the promise “all” in one Church through faith and the promise.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ben,

Amen. Well saying.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Ivey,

Jesus likely spoke this in Hebrew or Aramaic. In Aramaic the only word for stone is "keppa". In Hebrew it is typically "tsur", but some instances of "petra" in Hebrew (as a "loanword" from Greek) have been found. One ancient midrash has God telling Abraham something like, "attah ha petra, w'al ha petra zeh e'eseh malkti" (or something like that - I cannot remember exactly how the Hebrew is worded and I don't have a copy of it - but the translation is "you are rock, and on this rock I'll build my kingdom".

So here we have an example of "petra" in Hebrew, an example of the slogan, "on this rock I'll build my...", and an example of God "building" on a mere man.

Jesus has just called afiirmed Simon and called him a rock, a name by which he will be known, and then He goes on to say that He will build on a rock. Where then do we get the notion that the "rock" is Peter's statement, or Jesus Himself? It just doesn't fit.

Like I said - I still think many evangelicals approach this ALREADY having decided that it can't be Peter.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
Oldreg,

Regardless of what you think of the context isn't it ridiculous to believe that Jesus Christ was going to build His Church, for which He died, on a man?

Didn't He? Peter, James, Paul, Barnabas etc were the vessels used by Christ to spread His gospel and "build His church."

You seem to approach this with a preconceived answer, BEFORE even examining the context.

The question is not who preached the Gospel but whether Jesus Christ was going to build His Church, for which He died, on a man?

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
Ivey,

Jesus likely spoke this in Hebrew or Aramaic. In Aramaic the only word for stone is "keppa". In Hebrew it is typically "tsur", but some instances of "petra" in Hebrew (as a "loanword" from Greek) have been found. One ancient midrash has God telling Abraham something like, "attah ha petra, w'al ha petra zeh e'eseh malkti" (or something like that - I cannot remember exactly how the Hebrew is worded and I don't have a copy of it - but the translation is "you are rock, and on this rock I'll build my kingdom".

So here we have an example of "petra" in Hebrew, an example of the slogan, "on this rock I'll build my...", and an example of God "building" on a mere man.

Jesus has just called afiirmed Simon and called him a rock, a name by which he will be known, and then He goes on to say that He will build on a rock. Where then do we get the notion that the "rock" is Peter's statement, or Jesus Himself? It just doesn't fit.

Like I said - I still think many evangelicals approach this ALREADY having decided that it can't be Peter.

Charles, we don't know what language Jesus spoke this in, it could have been Hebrew or Aramaic, or Greek- the common trade language of the day.

We do know that God inspired the NT in Greek, so that is what we must go by.

 

[Charles Meadows]

We do know that God inspired the NT in Greek, so that is what we must go by.

And the Greek has words meaning "rock" for Peter AND that on which Jesus will build His church.

I wouldn't be arguing this if Jesus had said something like "Simon you speak a great firm truth, and on this rock I'll build..."

He said "you are rock, and on this rock I'll build the church."

Besides I've already given an ancient Jewish example of a statement (with which Jesus and the disciples quite possibly was familiar) in which God builds on a "petra", with petra referring to a man.

If you're arguing based on an inspired NT, then what about the fact that Greek says "rock" twice and the English versions also say "rock" - with Peter being called a rock specifically in both places.

 

[Benjamin]

(1Co 10:1) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

(1Co 10:2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

(1Co 10:3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

(1Co 10:4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ .

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ben,

Again, I say Amen. Well saying.

I already mentioned on 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 by posting before.

Ben, you show of this passage to us very well.

 

[IveyLeaguer]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
(1Co 10:1) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; (1Co 10:2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (1Co 10:3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat; (1Co 10:4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ .

LOL. Sorry, but it's late and I'm actually still laughing, Benjamin, no disrespect intended to anyone as this is a good, serious discussion. But what a great scripture reference. It brings to mind the idea that the 'Rock' of the church must have indeed existed in the OT as well as the New. How could the 'Rock' of the eternal church of the elect not pre-exist the New Covenant? Indeed, would not the 'Rock' of the church must needs have pre-existed Adam?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Remember, Calvary was a mystery to the Old Testament saints. Now, it is no longer mystery, now both Jews and Gentiles are unity together become one in Christ. No longer divided, but unity both together.

Church is made up for all believers of all ages whosoever believeth in Lord Jesus Christ by therough their faith. Also, Church is made up of individuals of every nations over the world, include tiny nation- Israel, whosoever belieth on Jesus Christ, they are the Church.

Jeremiah chapter 31 predicted with the promise to Israel, that God shall make a new covenant. Even now, Jeremiah chapter 31 of the new covenant is already fulfilled through Calvary by Christ's blood. New covenant is already occured , not wait till millennial kingdom. New Covenant was already made promised and fulfilled by through the cross by Christ's blood.

Now, every individual either Jew or Gentile from all nations of the world, whosoever believeth on Jesus Christ, is make up as "Church". Ephesians chapter 2 explains so very clear talking about Calvary.

Peter is the 'rock', so, therefore, you are the rock, I am rock, anyone whosoever belieth on Jesus Christ, are the rock, which Christ builds upon US -the rock. Of course, Christ IS the rock. My understanding what Christ speaks of Matt. 16:18, means that He is the founder of the Church as He is our Rock.

There are so countless of rocks or stones as individuals, but there is the only one BIG rock which is Jesus Christ that He is our foundation as founder. Understand?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[IveyLeaguer]

DeafPosttrib:

I think so, and I agree.

God Bless.

 

[Charles Meadows]

and that Rock was Christ

True enough. But that does not mean that everytime a rock is mentioned that Christ Himself is in view, unless one believes in the wide open allergorical hermeneutic of Origen.

Christ is the lion of Judah, yet Satan is also referred to as a "roaring lion".

Once again in context, Jesus tells Peter, "you are a rock, and on this rock I'll build my church."

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
and that Rock was Christ

True enough. But that does not mean that everytime a rock is mentioned that Christ Himself is in view, unless one believes in the wide open allergorical hermeneutic of Origen.

Christ is the lion of Judah, yet Satan is also referred to as a "roaring lion".

Once again in context, Jesus tells Peter, "you are a rock, and on this rock I'll build my church."

Once again from the Word of God:

(Joh 15:4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

(Joh 15:5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Like I said - I still think many evangelicals approach this ALREADY having decided that it can't be Peter.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths that some will go to so they can try to prove these dispensations of man and proclaim another Church. As for evangelicals approach this ALREADY having decided , behold, the kingdom of God has come nigh to you.

Explain it away if you must.

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by IveyLeaguer:
DeafPosttrib:

I think so, and I agree.

God Bless.

Ditto

 

[Benjamin]

As for evangelicals approach this ALREADY having decided , behold, the kingdom of God has come nigh to you.

That was suppose to be a joke, sort of, but not to question faith. As in the pot calling the kettle black.
Sorry if it sounded otherwise.