What CHURCH?

As usual OldRegular you are not paying attention, or have no idea of what you are talking about. I pointed out to you Acts 15:4, and you still contend the “other” apostles were out preaching to the Gentiles. ”And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.”

Can’t you see you refute the Bible? How can the Apostles be in Jerusalem and also be out preaching to the Gentiles? All the Apostles are still there in Acts 15:22, so they never ran outside trying to find some Gentile to listen to the gospel for the circumcised. "Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:"

You make your own scripture, believing God has told you something new, for what you say cannot be confirmed in His Word. In fact it refutes your "guess work", or your attempt to change His Word. For your own sake OldRegular, I hope you stop your march toward not believing the Bible. Christian faith, ituttut

 

I remember someone teaching that this passage was a play on words in the original Greek. That Jesus was saying to Peter, whose name means a little rock:

You are Peter (a pebble), but upon this rock (boulder) I will build my church.

And that the "boulder" was a reference to himself. I remember the two words were petra and petros, but I don't remember which is which. Any Greek scholars out there who can clear this up and/or verify?

 

Debby,

That has often been mentioned. It seems more likely that Jesus would have spoken Aramaic here since Peter was known as Cephas (keppa).

Yes there are 2 Greek words, petros (stone) and petra (large rock or bedrock).

To start with it seems more likely to be referring to Peter since Jesus is speaking to him - that fits much better with context.

Second, If Jesus was not speaking Greek here then we cannot discern as much from the petros/petra thing since it represents a translation - and since in Hebrew and Aramaic there was one word for rock (Hebrew tsur and Aramaic keppa).

There is also some evidence that "petra" was used as a lone word in Hebrew as well, replacing the native "tsur".

 

Okay, here's a brand new take on this. It just so happens that my pastor got back recently from his 2nd trip to Israel (he led a group from the church there but they had a guide). His message yesterday was on this passage!

He showed a slide of Ceasaria Phillipi, which is where Jesus said this rock thing to Peter. C. Phillipi was a big pagan worship center of the god Pan (and other gods but I think Pan was the big one) and had a quarry with entrances into caves (I think it was caves). Anyway, the pagans believed that these led to Hades. The pastor showed a slide of this. Okay, see what's coming yet?

My pastor went over a few of the popular views of what Jesus meant when he said "on this rock I will build my church" which have all been given here. The pastor said what Jesus was saying was that on this quarry (the word for "rock" also means quarry type rocks) he would build his church -- that is, the church would be built there in Paganland, and the gates of Hades (those pagan caves) would not prevail against it. It was a statement of the triumph of the church over paganism.

I think that's pretty neat.

 

Hello Marcia. I wish I could put this anyway, but I see no way other than to be blunt, but as Jesus Christ is the foundation the church is built upon, would he put His foundation on top of a Pagan foundation? That is sinking sand. This is in the Catholic thinking for I believe they contend Peter is the Rock, and that church is built on pagan idol worship, invoking the name of Jesus Christ.

His physical Church will be Jerusalem, and He will dwell in Mount Zion. He chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

 

===

Neither do I see a feminine substantive in that Greek phrase. What Greek word there is feminine?

Thanks,

Bill

 

Jesus did not use the word foundation in his statement. By saying the church would be built on a pagan area does not mean that paganism is the foundation of the church! Foundation is abstract, not physical.

And yes, the church was planted and flourished there, in a pagan worshiping area, as is true for all of the other areas where churches were planted.

Whether this take on it is right or not, I don't think either of the 2 responses against it hold up.

 

Bill,

I don't think that "petra" needs to match up genderwise with that to which it refers.

 

===

RIGHT!!! I didn't say it did!

 

I see no reason to look backward to find a feminine noun with which to relate petra.

We need to realize that Jesus almost certainly spoke Aramaic here - and Aramaic has only one word for stone. In addition there are midrashic examples using "petra" as a loanword in Hebrew, midrashim with which Jesus may have been familiar.

Thus by saying "...on this petra I'll build my church..." Jesus was likely attempting to use familiar language.

 

"Petra" is the large foundation stone. "Petros" is a small piece of stone. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, so petra could have been the physical foundation of the quarry, not a metaphorical foundation.

BTW, my pastor was not disagreeing with the view that Peter's confession of Christ as the Son of God is the foundation. I think he was giving an added dimension to it - that Jesus was also speaking of the quarry where the pagan worship was.

 

Doesn't anyone see possibilities or connections with Christ's mention of Hades in this speech and the local pagan belief that the gate to Hades was at C. Phillipi where Jesus made this statement?

 

Hi again Marcia. I do agree that these churches down here on this old earth are on heathen ground, but His Church is Up There, and will be on Holy ground when heaven comes to earth.

I answered to what was in your post of what your Pastor said, and it was physical. Quote “The pastor said what Jesus was saying was that on this quarry (the word for "rock" also means quarry type rocks) he would build his church -- that is, the church would be built there in Paganland, and the gates of Hades (those pagan caves) would not prevail against it. It was a statement of the triumph of the church over paganism.” Unquote.

The triumph over Satan, the grave, hell, and death are reality and not abstract. Perhaps what you wrote was not what you meant, but I only answered to what was implied. Perhaps you will not accept; however, any way we can look at this is, what have we to do with any that evidently believe Peter is the Rock. Peter is a “lively stone”, as all the rest. Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ the Rock, is the corner stone of the church. On this foundation of Jesus Christ, the Temple building has two rooms. Those of the nation of Israel build on Peter’s foundation, and those of the Christian faith build on Paul's foundation. As the foundation, the Rock is Jesus Christ, there is no other foundation (I Corinthians 3:11), the Paganland theory can only be error.

I Peter 2:5, ”Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.” His church is Spiritual, and it will be Tangible and Touchable, for He bodily arose, and so will we. Christian faith, ituttut