What CHURCH?

[ituttut]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
Poor, Poor ituttut, wrong again. Acts 15:4 does not indicate that Paul met any Apostles other than those he had already met, Peter and John. All the other Apostles were scattered preaching to the Gentiles as Jesus Christ had commanded.

As usual OldRegular you are not paying attention, or have no idea of what you are talking about. I pointed out to you Acts 15:4, and you still contend the “other” apostles were out preaching to the Gentiles. ”And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.”

Can’t you see you refute the Bible? How can the Apostles be in Jerusalem and also be out preaching to the Gentiles? All the Apostles are still there in Acts 15:22, so they never ran outside trying to find some Gentile to listen to the gospel for the circumcised. "Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:"

You make your own scripture, believing God has told you something new, for what you say cannot be confirmed in His Word. In fact it refutes your "guess work", or your attempt to change His Word. For your own sake OldRegular, I hope you stop your march toward not believing the Bible. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by ituttut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
Poor, Poor ituttut, wrong again. Acts 15:4 does not indicate that Paul met any Apostles other than those he had already met, Peter and John. All the other Apostles were scattered preaching to the Gentiles as Jesus Christ had commanded.

As usual OldRegular you are not paying attention, or have no idea of what you are talking about. I pointed out to you Acts 15:4, and you still contend the “other” apostles were out preaching to the Gentiles. ”And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.”

Can’t you see you refute the Bible? How can the Apostles be in Jerusalem and also be out preaching to the Gentiles? All the Apostles are still there in Acts 15:22, so they never ran outside trying to find some Gentile to listen to the gospel for the circumcised. "Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:"

You make your own scripture, believing God has told you something new, for what you say cannot be confirmed in His Word. In fact it refutes your "guess work", or your attempt to change His Word. For your own sake OldRegular, I hope you stop your march toward not believing the Bible. Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]Acts 15:4 says nothing about the Apostles who were there. All that was required was that two be present, lilely Peter and John.

It is not I who have created anything it is the hyperdispensationalists who have created a heretical doctrine and deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Debby in Philly]

I remember someone teaching that this passage was a play on words in the original Greek. That Jesus was saying to Peter, whose name means a little rock:

You are Peter (a pebble), but upon this rock (boulder) I will build my church.

And that the "boulder" was a reference to himself. I remember the two words were petra and petros, but I don't remember which is which. Any Greek scholars out there who can clear this up and/or verify?

 

[Charles Meadows]

Debby,

That has often been mentioned. It seems more likely that Jesus would have spoken Aramaic here since Peter was known as Cephas (keppa).

Yes there are 2 Greek words, petros (stone) and petra (large rock or bedrock).

To start with it seems more likely to be referring to Peter since Jesus is speaking to him - that fits much better with context.

Second, If Jesus was not speaking Greek here then we cannot discern as much from the petros/petra thing since it represents a translation - and since in Hebrew and Aramaic there was one word for rock (Hebrew tsur and Aramaic keppa).

There is also some evidence that "petra" was used as a lone word in Hebrew as well, replacing the native "tsur".

 

[Marcia]

Okay, here's a brand new take on this. It just so happens that my pastor got back recently from his 2nd trip to Israel (he led a group from the church there but they had a guide). His message yesterday was on this passage!

He showed a slide of Ceasaria Phillipi, which is where Jesus said this rock thing to Peter. C. Phillipi was a big pagan worship center of the god Pan (and other gods but I think Pan was the big one) and had a quarry with entrances into caves (I think it was caves). Anyway, the pagans believed that these led to Hades. The pastor showed a slide of this. Okay, see what's coming yet?

My pastor went over a few of the popular views of what Jesus meant when he said "on this rock I will build my church" which have all been given here. The pastor said what Jesus was saying was that on this quarry (the word for "rock" also means quarry type rocks) he would build his church -- that is, the church would be built there in Paganland, and the gates of Hades (those pagan caves) would not prevail against it. It was a statement of the triumph of the church over paganism.

I think that's pretty neat.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by OldRegular:

Originally posted by ituttutsnipped)

Acts 15:4 says nothing about the Apostles who were there. All that was required was that two be present, lilely Peter and John.

It is not I who have created anything it is the hyperdispensationalists who have created a heretical doctrine and deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It's good that you are changing your tune now, and almost agree with the Bible. We know Peter and John were there (in Galatians 2), and the others also for this is what scripture says in Acts 15.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Okay, here's a brand new take on this. It just so happens that my pastor got back recently from his 2nd trip to Israel (he led a group from the church there but they had a guide). His message yesterday was on this passage!

He showed a slide of Ceasaria Phillipi, which is where Jesus said this rock thing to Peter. C. Phillipi was a big pagan worship center of the god Pan (and other gods but I think Pan was the big one) and had a quarry with entrances into caves (I think it was caves). Anyway, the pagans believed that these led to Hades. The pastor showed a slide of this. Okay, see what's coming yet?

My pastor went over a few of the popular views of what Jesus meant when he said "on this rock I will build my church" which have all been given here. The pastor said what Jesus was saying was that on this quarry (the word for "rock" also means quarry type rocks) he would build his church -- that is, the church would be built there in Paganland, and the gates of Hades (those pagan caves) would not prevail against it. It was a statement of the triumph of the church over paganism.

I think that's pretty neat.

Hello Marcia. I wish I could put this anyway, but I see no way other than to be blunt, but as Jesus Christ is the foundation the church is built upon, would he put His foundation on top of a Pagan foundation? That is sinking sand. This is in the Catholic thinking for I believe they contend Peter is the Rock, and that church is built on pagan idol worship, invoking the name of Jesus Christ.

His physical Church will be Jerusalem, and He will dwell in Mount Zion. He chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Marcia:
My pastor went over a few of the popular views of what Jesus meant when he said "on this rock I will build my church" which have all been given here. The pastor said what Jesus was saying was that on this quarry (the word for "rock" also means quarry type rocks) he would build his church -- that is, the church would be built there in Paganland, and the gates of Hades (those pagan caves) would not prevail against it. It was a statement of the triumph of the church over paganism.

I think that's pretty neat.

Marcia, I don't want to offend you or your pastor, but he should spend more time in study and less time in Israel.

When we read Matthew 16, starting at verse 15, we see:

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Christ asks the disciples Who they believe He is.

Peter answers:

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Peter confesses that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God.

Next, Jesus commends Peter for his confession:

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Then Jesus makes a broad sweeping statement regarding the "foundation" of His church:

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Now we have to notice a few little things. First of all, Jesus said "you are Peter." The Greek word of "Peter" is "Petros." "Petros" is a masculine proper noun. Jesus then says "upon this rock." The Greek word translated "rock" is "petra." "Petra" is a feminine noun. In order to understand what Jesus was refering to by "rock" we have to look in the immediate preceding context. Is there another word in the preceding context that is in the feminine gender and would be the antecedent of "rock?" Yes, there is. Look back to Peter's confession of Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God.

The church is built on the foundation of confessing Christ as Savior.

 

[UZThD]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
Marcia, I don't want to offend you or your pastor, but he should spend more time in study and less time in Israel....

... "Petra" is a feminine noun. In order to understand what Jesus was refering to by "rock" we have to look in the immediate preceding context...


...Is there another word in the preceding context that is in the feminine gender and would be the antecedent of "rock?". Yes, there is. Look back to Peter's confession of Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God.


===


?

Help me out. I looked!


What word do you see in Peter's confession,

"Su ei ho Christos ho Huios tou Theou tou zontos,"

that is feminine?


Thanks,


Bill

 

[TCassidy]

Peter answered and said.

 

[UZThD]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
Peter answered and said.

===

Neither do I see a feminine substantive in that Greek phrase. What Greek word there is feminine?

Thanks,

Bill

 

[Marcia]

Jesus did not use the word foundation in his statement. By saying the church would be built on a pagan area does not mean that paganism is the foundation of the church! Foundation is abstract, not physical.

And yes, the church was planted and flourished there, in a pagan worshiping area, as is true for all of the other areas where churches were planted.

Whether this take on it is right or not, I don't think either of the 2 responses against it hold up.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Jesus did not use the word foundation in his statement.

"Petra" is the large foundation stone. "Petros" is a small piece of stone.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Bill,

I don't think that "petra" needs to match up genderwise with that to which it refers.

 

[UZThD]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
Marcia, I don't want to offend you or your pastor, but he should spend more time in study and less time in Israel.


Now we have to notice a few little things. First of all, Jesus said "you are Peter." The Greek word of "Peter" is "Petros." "Petros" is a masculine proper noun. Jesus then says "upon this rock." The Greek word translated "rock" is "petra." "Petra" is a feminine noun. In order to understand what Jesus was refering to by "rock" we have to look in the immediate preceding context. Is there another word in the preceding context that is in the feminine gender and would be the antecedent of "rock?" Yes, there is. Look back to Peter's confession of Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God.

===

As our being good students is , as you say above, so important would you help me to be that by simply taking a moment to specifically name the Greek word in the feminine gender in the preceding context you say is the antecedent of petra?

Also, IF you are saying that petros cannot=petra because of the difference in genders, then help me to understand how Christos (masc) =kephale(fem) in Eph 5:23?

Thanks for your help,


Bill

 

[UZThD]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
Bill,

I don't think that "petra" needs to match up genderwise with that to which it refers.

===

RIGHT!!! I didn't say it did!

 

[Charles Meadows]

I see no reason to look backward to find a feminine noun with which to relate petra.

We need to realize that Jesus almost certainly spoke Aramaic here - and Aramaic has only one word for stone. In addition there are midrashic examples using "petra" as a loanword in Hebrew, midrashim with which Jesus may have been familiar.

Thus by saying "...on this petra I'll build my church..." Jesus was likely attempting to use familiar language.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
Jesus did not use the word foundation in his statement.

"Petra" is the large foundation stone. "Petros" is a small piece of stone. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, so petra could have been the physical foundation of the quarry, not a metaphorical foundation.

BTW, my pastor was not disagreeing with the view that Peter's confession of Christ as the Son of God is the foundation. I think he was giving an added dimension to it - that Jesus was also speaking of the quarry where the pagan worship was.

 

[Marcia]

Doesn't anyone see possibilities or connections with Christ's mention of Hades in this speech and the local pagan belief that the gate to Hades was at C. Phillipi where Jesus made this statement?

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Jesus did not use the word foundation in his statement. By saying the church would be built on a pagan area does not mean that paganism is the foundation of the church! Foundation is abstract, not physical.

And yes, the church was planted and flourished there, in a pagan worshiping area, as is true for all of the other areas where churches were planted.

Whether this take on it is right or not, I don't think either of the 2 responses against it hold up.

Hi again Marcia. I do agree that these churches down here on this old earth are on heathen ground, but His Church is Up There, and will be on Holy ground when heaven comes to earth.

I answered to what was in your post of what your Pastor said, and it was physical. Quote “The pastor said what Jesus was saying was that on this quarry (the word for "rock" also means quarry type rocks) he would build his church -- that is, the church would be built there in Paganland, and the gates of Hades (those pagan caves) would not prevail against it. It was a statement of the triumph of the church over paganism.” Unquote.

The triumph over Satan, the grave, hell, and death are reality and not abstract. Perhaps what you wrote was not what you meant, but I only answered to what was implied. Perhaps you will not accept; however, any way we can look at this is, what have we to do with any that evidently believe Peter is the Rock. Peter is a “lively stone”, as all the rest. Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ the Rock, is the corner stone of the church. On this foundation of Jesus Christ, the Temple building has two rooms. Those of the nation of Israel build on Peter’s foundation, and those of the Christian faith build on Paul's foundation. As the foundation, the Rock is Jesus Christ, there is no other foundation (I Corinthians 3:11), the Paganland theory can only be error.

I Peter 2:5, ”Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.” His church is Spiritual, and it will be Tangible and Touchable, for He bodily arose, and so will we. Christian faith, ituttut