What Constitutes a Work?

[J. Jump]

It's full of ways we know that we're saved.

Saved from what though Amy. That is the question. Are you going to tell me that I have to continually love my brother in order to be saved for eternity? If that is the case eternal salvation is not secure and you will never know whether or not you are saved until you die, because there will always be the possibility that you will stop loving your brother.

Saying that I John is speaking of eternal salvation is just a backloaded works salvation message. If you don't "prove" you are saved then you weren't really saved to begin with. Sorry that's not supported by Scripture.

If I John is in fact talking about eternal salvation and I'm more than willing to hear out your support that it does, but then you are going to have to show me how a life-long process is going to mesh with Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9 which tells us that eternal salvation is not in fact a life long process, but a one-time event.

I'll be looking forward to your response.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

AMY: John 6
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Faith is not a work (of us). Anything other than faith is a work.

HP: The verse starts off with “This is the work of God” and then tells us how we can accomplish that work, by “believing in Him he sent.”

Does not ‘believing in Him whom he sent” involve faith, and does not this passage indicate that the results of believing is indeed a work?

 

[Darron Steele]

J. Jump: from what I read in Scripture, there is only "saved" and "unsaved" when it talks about Heaven and the alternative.

The thought of multiple salvations is not something I see any evidence for in Scripture, although it is a recurrent theme in your posts.

I do not believe the burden of proof is on Amy G..

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Does all sin involve a work?

 

[J. Jump]

J. Jump: from what I read in Scripture, there is only "saved" and "unsaved" when it talks about Heaven and the alternative.

Exactly. You either are and it's a done deal or you are not and need to be. This idea that eternal salvation is some life-long process that one has to endure to the end violates Scripture. Either you are or you are not.

What Amy has introduced in a "maybe" situation. One can never leave the realm of possibility until one dies in obedience and faithfulness in this scenario, which again violates Scripture.

So we're on the same page with either you are or you are not, when it comes to eternal salvation.

The thought of multiple salvations is not something I see any evidence for in Scripture, although it is a recurrent theme in your posts.

Come now let us reason together . . . what happens when a person is eternally saved? Which aspect of the tri-part being is impacted at the point a person believes in the Substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, on their behalf a sinner?

I look forward to your reponse.

I do not believe the burden of proof is on Amy G.

Sure it is. Whenever you promote something that goes against Scripture the ball is definitely in your court to prove what you are talking about.

So therefore I asked her to show me using Scripture how eternal salvation can be a life-long process when Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us in fact it is not. If you want to jump in on that one you are more than welcome.

 

[BobRyan]

I am a monergist, but I am not antinominian. The Law is still valid. A work constitutes anything we do to be in compliance with the Law be it a physical action or a thought. It is the Law that makes it abundantly clear that we cannot do anything in regards to our salvation.

That men may see your good works and glorify your FAther that is in heaven?

Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father - Matt 7

Not the HEARERS but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED Rom 2:13

The list is endless.

 

[Amy.G]

JJump:

Sure it is. Whenever you promote something that goes against Scripture the ball is definitely in your court to prove what you are talking about.

What am I promoting that goes against scripture? I didn't know I was promoting anything. I thought we were having a discussion.
You're the one doing the promoting.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: The verse starts off with “This is the work of God” and then tells us how we can accomplish that work, by “believing in Him he sent.”

Does not ‘believing in Him whom he sent” involve faith, and does not this passage indicate that the results of believing is indeed a work?

Not according to Paul.
Eph. 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[BobRyan]

Good Works

Matthew 5:16
"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

John 10:32
Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


1 Timothy 2:10
9Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.

1 Timothy 5:10
having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.

1 Timothy 6:18
Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

 

[BobRyan]

Exactly. You either are and it's a done deal or you are not and need to be. This idea that eternal salvation is some life-long process that one has to endure to the end violates Scripture.

This idea that you do NOT have to "endure until the end" violates scripture AND THESE ARE THE SCRIPTURES that it violates --

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, we will also reign with Him;If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

AMY: Not according to Paul.
Eph. 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

HP: It is not in keeping with the harmonization of Scriptural passages, one with another, to simply eliminate one passage by the elevating of another. This is exactly what JJ and HOG do time after time. If they don't like a pasage or a word in the verse, they just change the meaning of the words, create a false distinction, or find a version that eliminates the passage entirely.

Can you think of a way to harmonize the two passages, rather than to set one up as a contradiction to the other?



Can 'works' be thought of in more than one sense?

I am still wondering if all sin constitutes a work?

 

[Chemnitz]

That men may see your good works and glorify your FAther that is in heaven?

Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father - Matt 7

Not the HEARERS but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED Rom 2:13

The list is endless.

I am not really sure what your point is but I am going to have to assume you are saying that we must work our way into heaven.

Matthew 7:21 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Now the question becomes, what is the will of the Father? His will has been manifested in two ways. The first way is through the Law, which brings in Romans 2:13. However, it is abundantly clear that no one is justified through works of the Law. Romans 3:10-24

The second way God's will is expressed is in the Gospel.

Galatians 1:3-4 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father...

It pleased God to deliver us from our sins through Jesus Christ, for we are entirely incapable of the perfect obediance which the Law demands .

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

Romans 3:10-24 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." 13 "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." 14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 in their paths are ruin and misery, 17 and the way of peace they have not known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it- 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (emphasis mine)

The penultament will of God is that we trust in Christ, not in our own works be they physical or mental.

 

[J. Jump]

What am I promoting that goes against scripture?

Amy you are promoting the idea that I John is speaking about eternal salvation. If that is true then the Bible contradicts itself in at least two places. So I asked you to clarify how I John can be speaking of eternal salvation when it violates what at least two other passages say about eternal salvation.

Darren Steele said that I was the one that needed to prove what I was saying, but in fact it is you that needs to show how you can say I John is talking about eternal salvation when Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9 alone contradict what you are saying.

And just because we are having a discussion doesn't mean you aren't promoting anything. You are promoting your views on Scripture. And yes I am doing the same thing.

So again I'm looking forward to see how you deal with this contradiction.

 

[J. Jump]

This idea that you do NOT have to "endure until the end" violates scripture AND THESE ARE THE SCRIPTURES that it violates --

That would be true if we were talking about the salvation of the soul. However if we are talking about eternal salvation, which has been what this thread is about, then no not enduring to the end does not violate those Scriptures, because if those Scriptures are talking about eternal salvation then they contradict Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

Since the Bible can not have any contradictions we know the verses that you have put for that are just as true as Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9 must therefore be talking about a salvation other than eternal salvation.

This is the same thing I am visiting with Amy about, but she's just using a different Scripture. So I'll ask you the same question. How do you get around the contradiction of Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9 which explicitly says that eternal salvation is not a life-long process. I'm looking forward to your response.

 

[Hope of Glory]

This idea that you do NOT have to "endure until the end" violates scripture AND THESE ARE THE SCRIPTURES that it violates -

BobRyan, you are quite correct that we are commanded to good works. But there is nothing that says that we will do them.

You are also quite correct that we must endure until the end. But for what?

You gave the correct answer: "If we endure we will also reign with him."

I know that you think this is talking about being saved forever, but at least you see the passage. Many do not.

2 Timothy 2:15 tells us, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

"Rightly dividing" has to do with rightly handling or cutting straight. Kind of like a stone mason.

We have to correctly cut the word of truth; not leave things together that don't belong together.

Since Scriptures tell us that we are saved by "believe" and apart from works, then it goes on to say that we are saved by our works, we can either accept the contradiction or we can see that it's not a contradiction.

How many contradictions are you willing to accept?

It's easy to see that there is no contradiction, because in many (if not most) instances, it states that these works have to do with the saving of the soul.

Rightly dividing.

Or accepting contradictions.

Which one?

 

[Amy.G]

Amy you are promoting the idea that I John is speaking about eternal salvation. If that is true then the Bible contradicts itself in at least two places. So I asked you to clarify how I John can be speaking of eternal salvation when it violates what at least two other passages say about eternal salvation.

Darren Steele said that I was the one that needed to prove what I was saying, but in fact it is you that needs to show how you can say I John is talking about eternal salvation when Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9 alone contradict what you are saying.

And just because we are having a discussion doesn't mean you aren't promoting anything. You are promoting your views on Scripture. And yes I am doing the same thing.

So again I'm looking forward to see how you deal with this contradiction.

JJ, I'm not promoting anything. I'm trying to figure some things out and discussion is part of how I do that.

I do not deny eternal security. If I did, I would have to ignore a lot of scripture, especially the words spoken by our Lord. But, there are warnings given and they appear to be addressed to believers. However, I could be wrong. So, I'm not promoting anything since I don't have it all figured out yet.

I see nothing in scripture that says that the soul is separated from the spirit and is punished for 1000 years. Please show that scripture to me and others.

How is the soul punished anyway? In the lake of fire? How can you be partially saved?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: It is not in keeping with the harmonization of Scriptural passages, one with another, to simply eliminate one passage by the elevating of another. This is exactly what JJ and HOG do time after time. If they don't like a pasage or a word in the verse, they just change the meaning of the words, create a false distinction, or find a version that eliminates the passage entirely.

Can you think of a way to harmonize the two passages, rather than to set one up as a contradiction to the other?



Can 'works' be thought of in more than one sense?

I am still wondering if all sin constitutes a work?

I don't see a contradiction. We are not saved by works. Believing is not a work as I have shown you in the passages I presented.

 

[J. Jump]

I'm trying to figure some things out and discussion is part of how I do that.

Please take no offense at this statement that is coming, because none is intended If you are trying to figure some things out that is wonderful and I applaud you for that, as I am still learning as well. I think that is a life long process. However when we want to learn something that is generally best done by asking questions, not making statements.

You made statements that indicate that I John is speaking of eternal salvation. When a statement is made that means that it is something that you believe in and are promoting that idea.

That's why I asked how you are going to get I John's eternal salvation context (if that is truly what you believe) to mesh with Ephesians 2 and Acts 16 eternal salvation context, because the two contradict each other not compliment each other if they are speaking of the same thing.

I see nothing in scripture that says that the soul is separated from the spirit and is punished for 1000 years. Please show that scripture to me and others.

I would love the opportunity to do that. And I have invited you to join me in a one-on-one setting where it is much easier to discuss things and stay on track. If you would like to do that please send me a PM or an email and we'll get started reasoning together. Deal?

Again I hope I haven't offended you, because that was the farthest thing from my intention.

 

[Amy.G]

JJ:

You made statements that indicate that I John is speaking of eternal salvation.

What other kind of salvation is there? Temporary salvation?

 

[Hope of Glory]

JJ:
What other kind of salvation is there? Temporary salvation?

There's physical salvation, salvation from danger, salvation of the spirit, salvation of the soul...

There are lots of salvations spoken of in Scriptures, but for some reason, people seem to see any sort of salvation beyond the present physical all as the same thing.

Then, they argue as to whether it's secure, or whether works are involved. They argue because of seemingly contradictory passages of Scripture.

However, when properly divided, one salvation requires works (through faith), the other requires nothing but believing on the Lord Jesus. One can be forfeited, one cannot. That's why there are warnings given to saved people; not that they can lose their spiritual salvation, but they can lose their life (soul) in the age to come. That is what can be forfeited. That's what 1 John is about, that's what James is about... That's what most of the Bible is about. Very little time is spent telling us how or why to get saved and get into the family. Most of it is spent telling us how to live after we're in the family with a hope of glory if we behave ourselves or threats of loss if we don't.

When you read about "reward" and "wages", it's talking about things that are earned, not gifts. We don't earn getting into the family, and we cannot be unborn.