What Constitutes a Work?

[J. Jump]

What other kind of salvation is there? Temporary salvation?

Well I guess you could call it that. Most of Christendom says that eternal salvation and entrance into the coming kingdom of Christ are a packaged deal. However Scripture doesn't. HoG has laid some of this out.

We are born into the family so that we can understand the offer of the kingdom. The offer of the kingdom and eternal salvation are not the same thing, but again most of Christendom would have us believe they are.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HOG: However, when properly divided, one salvation requires works (through faith), the other requires nothing but believing on the Lord Jesus.

HP: If the reader believes this nonsense, I have a bridge to sell you. Properly divided? Who are you joking? You have not the least shred of evidence, Scriptural or logical, that such is the case. Your whole scheme is based on unfounded suppositions and bogus distinctions. You and or JJ complain about lack of Scriptural evidence to refute your novel ideas, but when Scriptural evidence is cited over and over you simply throw it out and say that it is all being taken out of context, or produce a corrupt text that eliminates the passage, or say that the well established universal concept surrounding the word has changed its meanings or that the true context is of a private interpretation, and that is understood and held by you and JJ alone.

There is but one gospel, one salvation, and one hope of eternal life. What is being presented by HOG and JJ is not simply another denominational view, it is a novel notion without any basis to be judged as another denominational view.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: Believing is not a work as I have shown you in the passages I presented.

HP: Did I miss your definition of what constitutes a work? Forgive me if I did. Could you restate it for the list? Thanks.

 

[Hope of Glory]

So, HP, what are you hoping for?

Are you hoping that you're saved?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Chemnitz: Who said anything about coersion? I will kindly ask you to stop putting words in my mouth. Please engage with what is actually written not your pet strawmen.

HP: Here are two of your comments

:God alone doing the work of salvation and conversion ……..Justification which is the act of salvation and is done totally by God.

We are commanded to love God upon pain of eternal separation from God. If the work which enables that is ‘done totally of God’ and none of man, would not the love that flows from that be the necessitated results of such coercion? If not, why not?

The simple truth is, that when you eliminate the willful efforts and intents formed by man from the salvation process, you eliminate man’s part in repentance and faith, and illustrate man as being totally passive. You cannot help but enter into the realm of salvation and subsequent ‘love’ by coercion. You, in reality, eliminate love completely on mans part towards God, and make love towards God an involuntary response to a coercive force. Such a notion destroys any true concept of what love entails or the part Scripture tells us that we must play in repentance and faith.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HOG: So, HP, what are you hoping for?

Are you hoping that you're saved?

HP: I entertain Paul’s hope, the hope of eternal life. My hope is not based as one would ‘hope’ they win the lottery, but is a sure hope founded on sure promises. IF I have truly repented of my sins, and have by faith accepted the atoning work of Christ to cover for all sins that are past, and are currently walking in the light as He is in the light, and IF I continue that walk until I leave this present world, God will indeed give me entrance into His eternal kingdom not made with hands, prepared in heaven and waiting for those that love Him. I have a present assurance as I walk in the light that Christ will be my advocate as I stand before God at the judgment and give an account for every deed, idle word, and intent of the heart.

That is my present sure hope of eternal life.

 

[Hope of Glory]

So, if you do a whole bunch of works, then you're saved, so you're hoping you've done enough. Right?

What happens if you come up a few works short? Or maybe a couple of days short of walking in the light?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Did I miss your definition of what constitutes a work? Forgive me if I did. Could you restate it for the list? Thanks.

Here's another:

Romans 4
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Faith is not a work.

Abraham was declared righteous because he "believed", not because of his works.
Belief is not a work.

 

[D28guy]

The phrase "work" is used in different contexts in the scriptures. We are instructed that we are to be workers in the harvest. We are to be involved in the work of the kingdom.

But in the context of the original post...

"

We speak of works verses faith. My question is what constitutes a 'work? '"

...I assume the request is what it is in connection with how we are justified in Gods sight.

In that context I would say that the scriptures teach us that a "work" is anything under the sun that we can conjure up that we do, or is needed, that we think is part of what God requires to be justified, or to stay justified, other than the one and only thing that He will accept, and that of course if faith, and faith alone.

"For it is by grace that you are saved (justified), through faith. And that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast. For you are Gods workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that you should walk in them"

The good works follow justification, but play no part in our obtaining justification. They also play no part in our staying saved. We are kept by Gods power, not our obedience or faithfulness...

"In Him you also trusted, (faith) after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also, having believed, (faith) you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession,(us) to the praise of His glory"

Needless to say, handfuls upon reams upon scores upon multitudes of other passages confirm this great and so foundational truth.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

AMY: Here's another:

Romans 4
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Faith is not a work.

Abraham was declared righteous because he "believed", not because of his works.
Belief is not a work.

HP: What I am, looking for is a definition that we can use to apply in the understanding of Scripture. Can you define what a ‘work’ is in your own words? Why is faith not a work? If faith is not a work in one sense, can it be in another?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Mike: …I would say that the scriptures teach us that a "work" is anything under the sun that we can conjure up that we do, or is needed, that we think is part of what God requires to be justified, or to stay justified, other than the one and only thing that He will accept, and that of course if faith, and faith alone.

HP: OK. Let’s assume you have a good definition of 'works' here. Take faith and see how it differs from a work. Faith is something that we do, is it not? Faith is something under the sun and could be said to be something that we ‘conjure up that we do,’ agree? Faith is required of God to be justified, or to stay justified, correct? How then does faith differ in its makeup than the definition you give of a work?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Does sin involve a 'work?'

 

[Amy.G]

HP: OK. Let’s assume you have a good definition of 'works' here. Take faith and see how it differs from a work. Faith is something that we do, is it not? Faith is something under the sun and could be said to be something that we ‘conjure up that we do,’ agree? Faith is required of God to be justified, or to stay justified, correct? How then does faith differ in its makeup than the definition you give of a work?

Because the Bible says so?
Romans 4
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Why do you want to make faith a work when the Bible says it is not?

 

[Hope of Glory]

From the BDAG, we get the following. I'll post all the pages of the word if anyone wants:

to engage in activity that involves effort, work, intr. work, be activehttp://www.baptistboard.com/#_ftn2 intr. intr. = intransitive

http://www.baptistboard.com/#_ftnref2Arndt, William ; Danker, Frederick W. ; Bauer, Walter: A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. 3rd ed. Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 2000, S. 389



Look back to Romans 4:4: The one who is working, it's not a favor, it's a debt.

We don't earn being saved.

In both verse 4 and verse 5, "working" is a present, participle, and in both cases, it's in the middle voice and singular.

It's also found in Matthew 21:28, but it's an imperative; it's a command to do something: But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.


Matthew 25:16 where "traded" is the same word: Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made [them] other five talents.

In fact, it's in 39 verses in the NT, and in all but one of them, it's in the middle voice, except for John 3:21, which is a perfect, passive, participle: Jn 3:21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Matthew 26:10: When Jesus understood [it], he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.


Mark 14:6: And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.

Luke 13:14, in which is also present tense, so should be "working": And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.


John 5:17: But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.


John 6:30: They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Want more?

 

[D28guy]

Heavenly Pilgrim,

I said...

"

I would say that the scriptures teach us that a "work" is anything under the sun that we can conjure up that we do, or is needed, that we think is part of what God requires to be justified, or to stay justified, other than the one and only thing that He will accept, and that of course if faith, and faith alone."

And you said...

"OK. Let’s assume you have a good definition of 'works' here. Take faith and see how it differs from a work. Faith is something that we do, is it not? Faith is something under the sun and could be said to be something that we ‘conjure up that we do,’ agree? Faith is required of God to be justified, or to stay justified, correct? How then does faith differ in its makeup than the definition you give of a work?"

Because faith is not a work, it is an attitude of the heart and mind. It cant be a work, since Almighty God contrasts it with "works", and He makes clear that we are not justified by works. God tells us that "it is by grace that you are saved, through faith", and He then says "not of works, lest anyone should boast".

Therefore faith can not be a work. God would be saying that 2 things are different from one another, when in truth they are the same. God does not lie.

And the passage Amy quoted deserves repeating...

"Romans 4
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:"

Mike

 

[BobRyan]

In Romans 4 Abraham is justified "apart from works".

In James 2 Abraham is justified "by his works and NOT by faith alone".

In Romans 2 "it is the doers of the law that WILL be justified" Rom 2:13.

These statements are all literally true as they read from scripture.

The solution is that one group speaks to legal, corporate verifiable justificaiton (as we see in Dan 7 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints") and the other talks about past-tense subjective individual justification at the moment that a person believes.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

or....works are thought of in two senses, 'that for the sake of,' or 'not without which.' We are not saved 'for the sake of our works,' for our works are not meritorious in nature, and in that sense salvation is not by works. Just the same, we will not be saved 'apart from our works,' which is represented by the statement that 'faith without works is dead.'

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Mike: Because faith is not a work, it is an attitude of the heart and mind.

HP: We are commanded to have and exercise faith. How can one exercise an attitude? Is not ones attitude a reflection of ones faith, instead of the other way around?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Being faithful is much different that simply having faith.

Exercising faith is much different than having faith.

Take the example of the talents: One held his talent; the others used them.

They were all servants, they all had money, they all had faith; but, they exercised their faith to varying degrees, with the one doing nothing but holding onto it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HOG:Being faithful is much different that simply having faith.

Exercising faith is much different than having faith.

HP: I would agree. Attitudes are developed over time. Faith involves an act of the will. Acts of the will indicate an intent formed at a specific moment in time.