What Constitutes a Work?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Is it possible to coerce a work? Can one force or coerce one to do something that would constitute a work? Can a work be involuntary, or does it of necessity have to be voluntary?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Is it possible to coerce a work? Can one force or coerce one to do something that would constitute a work? Can a work be involuntary, or does it of necessity have to be voluntary?

If you're asking this question, I would assume that you don't have teenagers.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HOG: If you're asking this question, I would assume that you don't have teenagers.

HP: I am asking and we have had had several teens, and still have some.

 

[Chemnitz]

HP: Here are two of your comments
We are commanded to love God upon pain of eternal separation from God. If the work which enables that is ‘done totally of God’ and none of man, would not the love that flows from that be the necessitated results of such coercion? If not, why not?

The simple truth is, that when you eliminate the willful efforts and intents formed by man from the salvation process, you eliminate man’s part in repentance and faith, and illustrate man as being totally passive. You cannot help but enter into the realm of salvation and subsequent ‘love’ by coercion. You, in reality, eliminate love completely on mans part towards God, and make love towards God an involuntary response to a coercive force. Such a notion destroys any true concept of what love entails or the part Scripture tells us that we must play in repentance and faith.

I have not removed anything. God removed any need for man to do anything through his great act of love. There is a vast difference between acting to build trust, aka faith, and coersion. God does not act through coersion, instead he has acted through out history to build trust with in us by repeatedly demonstrating that he is the God of our Salvation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Chemnitz: God removed any need for man to do anything through his great act of love.

HP: Why would God command us to do something that you say he has removed the need for? God commands us to repent, believe and to remain faithful.

If everything has been removed that would require us to do anything towards our salvation, why are there many conditional promises and warnings, the following just one? ‘2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:’

What are these things we are commanded to give diligence to? Nothing?

 

[Hope of Glory]

First of all, a definition of "corecion" so we are all on the same page:

noun1. the act of compelling by force of authority 2. using force to cause something to occur; "though pressed into rugby under compulsion I began to enjoy the game"; "they didn't have to use coercion"
With this definition, then I would say that God does use coercion, after a fashion, in that he gives warnings about what will happen if we do (or don't do) certain things.

However, a person can respond out of fear or out of love, and the joy is that much greater when it's out of love.

I also think the reward is greater. Take Isaac and Ishmael. Ishmael was a child under the law and he had an inheritance, but Isaac, the child under grace, had so very much more!

HP: Why would God command us to do something that you say he has removed the need for? God commands us to repent, believe and to remain faithful.

And what happens if we don't repent continually, believe continually, or remain faithful continually? Do we become unsaved?

If everything has been removed that would require us to do anything towards our salvation, why are there many conditional promises and warnings, the following just one? ‘2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:’

2 Peter is talking about election (out-calling), not simply being saved.

That's what the work requiremets are given for. Election. It has to do with our inheritance, not getting saved.

All the work for us getting saved has been done, by Jesus on the cross, with nothing that we can add to to have any effect on it.

What are these things we are commanded to give diligence to? Nothing?

It's not what we're commanded to give diligence to, but why.

If you think we're commanded to give dilligence to get saved, stay saved, or prove we're saved, then I have to ask you how many more contradictions are you willing to accept in the Bible?

That's a works-based salvation you're promoting there.

Works are works are works, not matter what you call them or how much you ignore them or even if you try to backload them and say, "Well, a really and truly saved person will do these things." That's not what the Bible says, but it sure does sound good!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HOG: First of all, a definition of "corecion" so we are all on the same page:
noun1. the act of compelling by force of authority 2. using force to cause something to occur; "though pressed into rugby under compulsion I began to enjoy the game"; "they didn't have to use coercion"
With this definition, then I would say that God does use coercion, after a fashion, in that he gives warnings about what will happen if we do (or don't do) certain things.

However, a person can respond out of fear or out of love, and the joy is that much greater when it's out of love.

HP: By reading your last comment, it is clear that you have not grasped the correct meaning of the word in the context I used it in. I used the words to describe a condition where under that set of circumstances, one has no other alterative or choice, for they are under compulsion to act in a certain way, and cannot act in any other. Force or coercion is at direct antipodes with motivations such as love. Love denotes choice, and coercion eliminates all choice. Coercion forces the end upon the individual apart from any choice they make. When there is only one possible consequent for a given antecedent, the result is said to be forced or coerced. If there are two or more consequents for a given antecedent, an individual can be said to have a choice in the matter.

Blackstone said “A man is excused for acts done through unavoidable force or compulsion.” In issues involving morals, God clearly praises, blames or punishes man for his intents of the heart. This is a clear indication that force, coercion or compulsion is not at work in moral issues. Love is impossible to conceive of in such cases. Coercion, force, or compulsion, destroy the necessary elements needed for morality to be predicated of a intent.

When God gives us warnings, it is a clear indication that coercion or force are not affecting or controlling our decisions. It is a clear indication that we are indeed free to either listen and obey, or rebel and disobey. When a reward or punishment is imposed, it is a clear indication that man is free to either obey or disobey, apart from force or coercion.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I have asked a question that goes unanswered, and for the life of me I cannot understand why. It is a simple straight forward question. It is simply, does all sin constitute a work?

Scripture states that "anything that is not of faith is sin," and faith and works have been set at antipodes by many on this list, so is not the answer to my question a simple, yes, it is?

Because faith and works are said to be at antipodes, could it not also be said, since anything that is not of faith is sin, that all works are sin? If not, why not?