What do Baptists and Catholics have in common?

[Thinkingstuff]

First, I read the OP a little too quickly and didn't realize she was quoting from a Baptist statement of faith. So I was reading it, thinking that some Catholic composed it. Thus in my mind it came across as a pack of lies.

In the first point the statement of faith reads:
We believe that those who repent of their sins and trust Jesus Christ as Savior are regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
--The RCC does not believe this.
1. Most, like myself, are admitted into the RCC through infant baptism. How can an infant repent of their sins? How can an infant trust Jesus Christ of their Savior? And consequently be regenerated by the Holy Spirit? All three are impossible. The Catholic Church does not believe in any of this. To say so is just hypocrisy. Even an adult does not believe this in the RCC to gain admission. They go through a process of confirmation classes. It is not Christ they trust; it is the Church and the Catechism.

2. The Church
We believe in the universal church, a living spiritual body of which Christ is the head and all regenerated persons are members. We believe in the local church consisting of a company of believers in Jesus Christ, baptized on a credible profession of faith, and associated for worship, work and fellowship. We believe that God has laid upon the members of the local church the primary task of giving the gospel of Jesus Christ to a lost world. (Matthew 16:16-18; Acts 2:38-41; Ephesians 2:19, 22, 5:25-27)

Again the same point is made. Very few people become Catholics outside of infant baptism. Those that do become Catholics as adults don't have a clue about regeneration. They believe that baptism is a part of regeneration or salvation, which it is not. The statement of faith here says: "baptized on a credible profession of faith," which means the profession of faith," the statement that "Yes now I am a Christian" comes before baptism. Baptism has nothing to do with salvation according to this statement of faith. Catholics don't believe this. Why pretend that they do? It is hypocrisy to say that they do.

You miss the part where the adult catachumins must go to confession which has to do with the remission of sins. Does it not? As far as baptism being regenerative the CoC thinks the same thing and scriptures can seem to allude to it. Before a Catholics is baptised (save for infants) they must be catachized and know what their admission is.
Catholics claim to believe it. You contention is that they don't. However, they say they do.

As far as infants its a different catagory.

 

[BobRyan]

Instead of focusing on the beliefs that divide us, I thought it would be interesting to focus on the beliefs that unite us. For example, in italics are the beliefs of a typical Baptist church in Bothell, Washington called Northshore Baptist Church.

As an outsider looking at the two of you - I would say your list is pretty good.

however here is where I think your list is a bit weak.

http://www.nsb.org/im-new/faith-statement

Statement of FaithThe Word of God
We believe that the Bible is the Word of God, fully inspired and without error in the original manuscripts, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and has supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct. (John 17:17; Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17; 2 Peter 1:19-21)

Catholics accept the Bible as the "Word of God" as you say - but that did not stop them from burning bibles so that the common people could not have access to it.

However the bigger problem there - is the "supreme authority" of scripture from a Baptist point of view means that all doctrine and faith and practice are to be tested "Sola scripture".

But "Them is fightin' words" every time I menion that idea on a Catholic message board. (As well as on this board - when Catholic members respond to it).

So in this case Adventists are actually closer to Baptists on that one belief.

The Trinity
We believe that there is one living and true God, eternally existing in three persons; that these are equal in every divine perfection, and that they execute distinct but harmonious offices in the work of creation, providence, and redemption. (Matthew 28:19; John 1:1-4; 1 John 5:7)

This would have been a perfect fit - if that bit about "creation" were not added. Catholic universitiies teach that evolutionism is the right view of origins - not the Bible teaching on creation.

So in this case Adventists are actually closer to Baptists on that one belief.

God the Father
We believe in God, the Father, an infinite personal Spirit, perfect in holiness, wisdom, power, and love. We believe that He concerns Himself mercifully in the affairs of men, that He hears and answers prayer, that He saves from sin and death all who come to Him through Jesus Christ. (John 3:16-17, 4:24, 17:5)

Catholics would also affirm this belief in God the Father.

This also is pretty close except for that part about "coming to the Father through Jesus Christ".

It seems that I recall an encyclical discussing the reasons why Christians should NOT pray directly to the Father - a few years ago.

So in this case Adventists are actually closer to Baptists on that one belief.

Jesus Christ
We believe in Jesus Christ as God, the only begotten Son of the Father, conceived by the Holy Spirit. We believe in His virgin birth as a human being, sinless life, miracles, and teachings. We believe in His substitutionary atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, perpetual intercession for His people, and personal visible return to earth. (Isaiah 7:14; John 1:14; Philippians 2:5-11; I Thessalonians 4:16, 17; Hebrews 1:2, 3; I John 1:7)

Catholics also affirm these beliefs in Jesus Christ.

I agree that - that one is also "pretty close" - however Baptists believe in the Heb 10 "ONCE for ALL" sacrifice of Christ - and Catholic doctrine promotes more of a "continuing sacrifice" where priests daily "confect the body of Christ" and the sacrifice is "participated in"

So in this case Adventists are actually closer to Baptists on that one belief.

The Holy Spirit
We believe in the Holy Spirit who came forth from the Father and Son to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and to regenerate, sanctify, and empower all who believe in Jesus Christ. We believe that the Holy Spirit indwells every believer in Christ and that He is an abiding Helper, Teacher and Guide. (John 16:7-15; Romans 8:14-17; Ephesians 1:13, 14; John 14:26)

Catholics believe in the Holy Spirit.

I think actually works out as you say. Complete agreement.

Regeneration
We believe that all men are sinners by nature and choice. Therefore, they are under judgment. We believe that those who repent of their sins and trust Jesus Christ as Savior are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. (John 1:12, 13, 3:16-18; Acts 20:21; Ephesians 2:1-9; Titus 3:5)

Catholics believe this as well.

Agreed. You get that one right as well.

The Church
We believe in the universal church, a living spiritual body of which Christ is the head and all regenerated persons are members. We believe in the local church consisting of a company of believers in Jesus Christ, baptized on a credible profession of faith, and associated for worship, work and fellowship. We believe that God has laid upon the members of the local church the primary task of giving the gospel of Jesus Christ to a lost world. (Matthew 16:16-18; Acts 2:38-41; Ephesians 2:19, 22, 5:25-27)

Catholics would believe in most of this statement, but probably would add that the church is also the visible representative of Christ on earth and is composed of "wheat and tares" and which is which are known by God and will be revealed at the Final Judgement.

If by "visible representation of Christ on earth" you mean that Catholics believe that Baptists are the visible representation of Christ on earth - then that is a new one on me regarding Catholic doctrine.

Baptists hold open communion - Catholics do not.

Thus the Catholic church would forbid a baptist from taking part in the mass.

Furthermore - Catholic teaching on the New Covenant is that Baptists are not saved under the New Covenant because in Catholic doctrine the New Covenant is limited to the Catholic Mass.

So in this case Adventists are actually closer to Baptists on that one belief.

Christian Conduct
We believe that a Christian should live for the glory of God and well-being of his fellowmen; that his conduct should be blameless before the world; that he should be a faithful steward of his possessions; and that he should seek to realize for himself and others the full statute of maturity in Christ. (2 Corinthians 9:6-8; Ephesians 4:11-16, Philippians 2:14-16; Colossians 3:17-23; 1 Thessalonians 5:17, 18)

Catholics would have no argument with this statement.

I think you are right on that point.

The Ordinances
We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has committed two ordinances to the local church: baptism and the Lord’s Supper. We believe that Christian baptism is the immersion of the believer in water into the name of the Triune God. We believe that these two ordinances should be observed and administered until the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 2:41, 42; Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 11:23-32)

Baptists and Catholics agree that Baptism and the Lord's Supper are important.

But they differ on everything else about those ordinances.

For Catholics there is no such thing as limitiing baptism to believers or limiting it to the Biblical model of immersion.

The other difference is that Catholics have MORE than "two ordinances".

So in this case Adventists are actually closer to Baptists on that one belief.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Religious Liberty
We believe that every human being has direct relations with God and is responsible to God in all matters of faith. Each church is independent and must be free from interference by an ecclesiastical or political authority; church and State must be kept separate as having fulfilling its duties free from dictation or patronage of the other.

Baptists and Catholics agree that we are responsible to God in matters of faith.

But they differ on everything else when it comes to Religious Liberty.

The Catholic view is that the Lateran IV statement calling for the "extermination of heretics and Jews" was an infallible statement and is part of Canon law. Forcing the conscience - forcing conversions, torementing heretics is a large "difference" between those two groups in terms of doctrine and practice.

So in this case Adventists are actually closer to Baptists on that one belief.

Church Cooperation
We believe that local churches can best promote the cause of Jesus Christ by cooperating with one another in a denominational organization. Such an organization, whether a regional or district conference, exists and functions by the will of the churches. Cooperation in a conference is voluntary and may be terminated at any time. Churches, likewise, cooperate with interdenominational fellowships on a voluntary independent basis.

Catholics also have an ecclesiastical structure for both accountability and to make sure that the RCC has a consistent voice on the matters of faith and morals. Catholic parishes co-operate among themeselves and with members of other church bodies at times

Catholic hierarchy is much more structured and rigid than the Baptist model. It goes way beyond "we cooperate". Thus the Baptist model is the polar OPPOSITE to the Catholic model.

In that regard Adventists are somewhere between.

The End Times
We believe in the personal and visible return of the Lord Jesus Christ to earth and the establishment of His kingdom. We believe in the resurrection of the body, the final judgment, the eternal felicity of the righteous, and the endless suffering of the wicked. (Matthew 25:31-46; John 5:18, 29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Revelation 20:1-15)

Catholics believe this as well.

I have no idea what Catholics believe regarding end time events. They seem to speak "against" it more than they reveal what they actually believe about it.

You left out some key points of agreement where Catholics agree with Baptists - but Adventists do not.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[billwald]

>>There is one gospel, that is the Good News that Christ came down to earth, preached, suffered, died and was buried for our sins. On that we can agree!


>I see. So then, do you believe that Mormons preach the same Gospel, as well?

YES! As long as the resurrection is included. If Satan preached it it would still be the Gospel.

Christian denominations try to take the place of the Holy Spirit by adding what they think is the proper response to the Gospel to the Gospel and then claiming that their total package is the Gospel.

There is no money or power in preaching that Jesus died and was raised for the sins of the world. The money and power comes from preaching "and now you must do what we tell you if you want the benefits of the Gospel."

 

[DHK]

You miss the part where the adult catachumins must go to confession which has to do with the remission of sins. Does it not? As far as baptism being regenerative the CoC thinks the same thing and scriptures can seem to allude to it. Before a Catholics is baptised (save for infants) they must be catachized and know what their admission is.
Catholics claim to believe it. You contention is that they don't. However, they say they do.

As far as infants its a different catagory.

No man can forgive sins. Only God can forgive sins.
Look in Mark chapter two, when Jesus was in the synagogue, and they brought to him a man sick with the palsy. Jesus healed him:

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
--What he said angered the Pharisees:

Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

The Pharisees were correct. Only God can forgive sins. They were just not willing to believe that Christ was God.
No priest can forgive sins. As the Pharisees point out it is blasphemy for them to say that they do.

Because the COC believes that baptism is a part of salvation does not make it right. It makes them as wrong as the Hindus and just as pagan. They are trusting in their baptism to save them and not in Christ.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No man can forgive sins. Only God can forgive sins.
Look in Mark chapter two, when Jesus was in the synagogue, and they brought to him a man sick with the palsy. Jesus healed him:

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
--What he said angered the Pharisees:

Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

The Pharisees were correct. Only God can forgive sins. They were just not willing to believe that Christ was God.
No priest can forgive sins. As the Pharisees point out it is blasphemy for them to say that they do.

Because the COC believes that baptism is a part of salvation does not make it right. It makes them as wrong as the Hindus and just as pagan. They are trusting in their baptism to save them and not in Christ.

No man can forgive sins? Then why does the lord say in his prayer "And forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin agiansst us"? If we are unable to forgive then God cannot possibly for give us.
However, apart from that point I get your meaning with regard to imputed righteousness. However, my point was not whether a priest can forgive a mans sins but that a repentance must occur with conversion resulting in baptism. Which catholics believe a man must repent if they truelly have faith.

 

[matt wade]

No man can forgive sins? Then why does the lord say in his prayer "And forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin agiansst us"? If we are unable to forgive then God cannot possibly for give us.
However, apart from that point I get your meaning with regard to imputed righteousness. However, my point was not whether a priest can forgive a mans sins but that a repentance must occur with conversion resulting in baptism. Which catholics believe a man must repent if they truelly have faith.

Surely you know the difference between a sin against another human being and a sin against God, don't you?

 

[DHK]

No man can forgive sins? Then why does the lord say in his prayer "And forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin agiansst us"? If we are unable to forgive then God cannot possibly for give us.
However, apart from that point I get your meaning with regard to imputed righteousness. However, my point was not whether a priest can forgive a mans sins but that a repentance must occur with conversion resulting in baptism. Which catholics believe a man must repent if they truelly have faith.

When we offend a person, we go to that person and ask forgiveness, not a priest. What does a priest have to do it with it?

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

When David sinned by committing adultery against Bathsheba, and then murdered Uriah, he said in his prayer of repentance:
"Against thee and thee only have I sinned." The sin was against God.

All sin is against God. It is to Him we must go.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

A priest has no power to forgive sins; only God has that power.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

When we offend a person, we go to that person and ask forgiveness, not a priest. What does a priest have to do it with it?

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

When David sinned by committing adultery against Bathsheba, and then murdered Uriah, he said in his prayer of repentance:
"Against thee and thee only have I sinned." The sin was against God.

All sin is against God. It is to Him we must go.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

A priest has no power to forgive sins; only God has that power.

As far as David if Uriah had lived I am sure he would have went to him for forgiveness but since he was dead only one could forgive. And all sins against other men are ultimately sins against God.
Still you missed my point which was not whether a priest can forgive sins which is a rabbit chase. My point was that before there is a declaration of faith, before there is a baptism, there is a Catholic Requirement for repentance.

 

[Crabtownboy]

What do Baptists and Catholics have in common?

In general both believe they have a corner on the truth about God.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You're claiming Jesus has a mediatoral office. He is the mediator between God and man. Its not an office.

If Jesus is the Mediator between God and man, then that means that that's Christ's mediatorial office.

YES! As long as the resurrection is included. If Satan preached it it would still be the Gospel.

If you really think that the Mormon gospel is the same as the Biblical Gospel, then you're either grossly ignorant of their gospel or grossly ignorant of the Christian Gospel.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If Jesus is the Mediator between God and man, then that means that that's Christ's mediatorial office.

No it doesn't. He is the Mediator. He doesn't hold it as an office.

 

[lori4dogs]

They are saved by faith - with the sacraments. You cannot be saved outside of the sacraments, can you?

The Catholic Church teaches that you Baptist are saved by Grace without the sacraments, don't they?

 

[Zenas]

No man can forgive sins. Only God can forgive sins.

Dut DHK, look at Matthew 9:6-8. It uses the term "men" (plural). Jesus was only one man so who were these men to whom God had given the power to forgive sins?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

No it doesn't. He is the Mediator. He doesn't hold it as an office.

Is it the word "office" that you're having trouble with? If so, what is it about the word that you object to?

 

[Zenas]

In general both believe they have a corner on the truth about God.

Very good, Crabby. :laugh:

 

[DHK]

Dut DHK, look at Matthew 9:6-8. It uses the term "men" (plural). Jesus was only one man so who were these men to whom God had given the power to forgive sins?

Matthew 9:6-8 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. And he arose, and departed to his house. But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

They didn't believe that Jesus Christ was God and thus the use of the word "men." They still believed that he was just another man; just another prophet, one of many "men." They denied his deity, questioned his power to forgive sins. The fact remains. Their assertion was correct. Only God has power to forgive sins. They did not believe Christ was God and did not believe Christ had that power, and therefore accused him of blasphemy.

 

[Aaron]

What do Baptists and Catholics have in common?

The Scriptures, and that's about it. Their traditions, however, are antithetical to the Scriptures.

 

[annsni]

The Catholic Church teaches that you Baptist are saved by Grace without the sacraments, don't they?

Nope. They don't believe we are saved outside the Church.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

The Catholic Church teaches that you Baptist are saved by Grace without the sacraments, don't they?

Not according to these guys:

"Let them (those separate from the Catholic Church) not think that the way of life or salvation exists for them, if they have refused to obey the bishops and priests...For they cannot live outside, since there is only one house of God, and there can be no salvation for anyone except in the Church." St. Cyprian: "Letters 61:4".
http://www.catholic.com/library/Salv...the_Church.asp


"Just as no man can enter any place without the help of him who has the keys, so no one is admitted to Heaven unless its gates be unlocked by the priests to whose custody the Lord gave the keys." Catechism of Trent, p. 286, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: "The Book of Obedience", Chapter 2: "No One Can Be Saved Who Refuses Obedience to the Pastors of the Church").
]http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/6480/catholics/apostolic5chp2.html


"You must submit yourself faithfully to those who have charge of divine things, and you must look to them for the means of your salvation." Pope St. Gelasius I, RCH, vol. 1, p.147, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: "The Book of Obedience", Chapter 3: "The Sacraments Administered by the Priests Are Necessary for the Salvation of All Mankind").
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy...lic5chp3.html]


"For if any one will consider how great a thing it is for one, being a man, and compassed with flesh and blood, to be enabled to draw nigh to that blessed and pure nature, he will then clearly see what great honor the grace of the Spirit has vouchsafed to priests; since by their agency these rites are celebrated, and others nowise inferior to these both in respect of our dignity and our salvation. For they who inhabit the earth and make their abode there are entrusted with the administration of things which are in Heaven, and have received an authority which God has not given to angels or archangels...and what priests do here below God ratifies above, and the Master confirms the sentence of his servants. For indeed what is it but all manner of heavenly authority which He has given them when He says, 'Whose sins ye remit they are remitted, and whose sins ye retain they are retained?' What authority could be greater than this? 'The Father hath committed all judgment to the Son?' But I see it all put into the hands of these men by the Son. For they have been conducted to this dignity as if they were already translated to Heaven, and had transcended human nature, and were released from the passions to which we are liable....For transparent madness it is to despise so great a dignity, without which it is not possible to obtain either our own salvation, or the good things which have been promised to us. For if no one can enter into the kingdom of Heaven except he be regenerate through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink His blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious?" St. John Chrysostom, Treatise on the Priesthood, Book III, #5, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series I, Vol. IX.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-09/npnf1-09-08.htm