What do BB Arminians Believe?

[Tom Butler]

I'm learning here.

Are there those who describe themselves as Arminians who DO believe one can lose/forfeit salvation?

Regarding corporate election, how can God elect a group without electing the individuals within the group?

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm learning here.

Are there those who describe themselves as Arminians who DO believe one can lose/forfeit salvation?

Regarding corporate election, how can God elect a group without electing the individuals within the group?

Don't think anyone here saying they hold to arminian theology state we can lose our salvation

have read views that either Jesus was the Elect of God, the Church, or else the Gospel was!

God placed the saints into that elected person/thing based upon their faith/acceptance of Christ!

I had to read in bibile school 'elect in the Son", also Chosen , but free by Norman Geisler expalins their views!

 

[12strings]

I'm learning here.

Are there those who describe themselves as Arminians who DO believe one can lose/forfeit salvation?

Regarding corporate election, how can God elect a group without electing the individuals within the group?

Of course there are arminians who believe one can lose their salvation. Not all do, but if you do, chances are you are an arminian. Wesleyans and Free-will Baptists come to mind...probably methodists and Nazarenes too.

 

[12strings]

VAN: Did not see any response to these questions:
1) Exactly what does "incorporated in Christ by true faith" mean? Arminians believe we are born again when we put our faith in Christ. They affirm when we believe we are united with Christ. But they are vague on the mechanism of becoming united, "incorporated in Christ by true faith". It appears they think a person becomes united "automatically" and seem not to address the view that those whose faith God credits as righteousness, are united with Christ by His supernatural act of transferring us from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of the Son.

2) Exactly what does being a "partaker of the Spirit" mean? Do we become partakers of the Spirit when we learn from the gospel, or only when we are sealed in Christ?

1. Perhaps they are simply summarizing their positions, and so don't go into all the mechanics, such as transfered righteousness, or adoption, Kingdom transfering, and others.

 

[Van]

How can a group be elected without at the same time electing the individuals that make up the group?

For example a target group of a sales program might be aimed at teenagers. So the company elects to target teens, and so they "corporately elect teens" yet no individual teen is elected.

According to my understanding of Ephesians 1:4, when God elected the Word to be His Lamb, His Redeemer, He corporately elected as the target group of His Redemption plan, believers He would place in Christ. Then, during our lifetime, He credits our faith as righteousness, making us believers in His eyes, and on that basis, He spiritually puts us in Christ. Hence, we were elected corporately before creation and individually during our lifetime. You may hold an alternate view, but no other view fits as well, in my opinion, with all the verses that say we lived without mercy before we received mercy. If we had been individually chosen before creation, we would never have lived without mercy.

Arminians who hold to Corporate Election deny, I believe, that God individually chooses us based on faith in the truth. But I am hoping they were describe their beliefs, rather than me attempting to describe what seems inconsistent with scripture.

 

[Skandelon]

I'm learning here.

Regarding corporate election, how can God elect a group without electing the individuals within the group?

Great question, and necessary to understand for one to correctly represent this view...

Examples:

1. A pilot may predetermine the destination of his airplane without predetermining who will and will not get on his plane.

2. A football coach may predetermine what the condition of his team will be prior to the season starting without predetermine who will or will not choose to join his team.

3. A shepherd may predetermine what he will do with the flock inside his pen without predetermining which sheep will or will not enter by the gate.

Does this help? God has chosen what he will do with whosoever believes and he has chosen to draw all men to himself by inviting all men to come. His appeal to be reconciled is sent to every creature indiscriminately, thus proving God has at least chosen to call all men to salvation. The call to reconciliation itself implies ability for true reconciliation. Only an explicit teaching telling us otherwise would deny such a strong and clear implication.

 

[12strings]

Great question, and necessary to understand for one to correctly represent this view...

Examples:

1. A pilot may predetermine the destination of his airplane without predetermining who will and will not get on his plane.

2. A football coach may predetermine what the condition of his team will be prior to the season starting without predetermine who will or will not choose to join his team.

3. A shepherd may predetermine what he will do with the flock inside his pen without predetermining which sheep will or will not enter by the gate.

Does this help? God has chosen what he will do with whosoever believes and he has chosen to draw all men to himself by inviting all men to come. His appeal to be reconciled is sent to every creature indiscriminately, thus proving God has at least chosen to call all men to salvation. The call to reconciliation itself implies ability for true reconciliation. Only an explicit teaching telling us otherwise would deny such a strong and clear implication.

A problem with these analogies (I'll use football here) is that unless the coach actually chooses certain people to be on the team, he has no reason to call the team the "chosen ones." If he simply accepted everyone on the team, there would be no reason to say, "now since you are the chosen ones, put on these pads and go win!"

Yet We are repeatedly called God's chosen one's. What does that mean if we are not actually chosen?

-Colossians 3:12 - Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

-1 Peter 2:9 - But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light

-1 Thess. 1:4-5 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

 

[Yeshua1]

Great question, and necessary to understand for one to correctly represent this view...

Examples:

1. A pilot may predetermine the destination of his airplane without predetermining who will and will not get on his plane.

2. A football coach may predetermine what the condition of his team will be prior to the season starting without predetermine who will or will not choose to join his team.

3. A shepherd may predetermine what he will do with the flock inside his pen without predetermining which sheep will or will not enter by the gate.

Does this help? God has chosen what he will do with whosoever believes and he has chosen to draw all men to himself by inviting all men to come. His appeal to be reconciled is sent to every creature indiscriminately, thus proving God has at least chosen to call all men to salvation. The call to reconciliation itself implies ability for true reconciliation. Only an explicit teaching telling us otherwise would deny such a strong and clear implication.

problem is that the scriptures do NOT say the Lord has chosen ALl to be saved in christ, nor that jesus will save all!

Its whosever wills can get saved, and those whose desire to come to christ will be those enabled too by God based upon his foreknown election of them!

 

[agedman]

I have chosen site that most uninformed folks will click on first to show that it is a common Arminian view that salvation certainly may be forfeited by apostasy. The standard proof text that is used is Hebrews, "It is impossible to renew..."

Eternal security is also conditional: All believers have full assurance of salvation with the condition that they remain in Christ. Salvation is conditioned on faith, therefore perseverance is also conditioned.[20] Apostasy (turning from Christ) is only committed through a deliberate, willful rejection of Jesus and renunciation of saving faith. Such apostasy is irremediable.

Taken from "Arminianism" Classical Arminianism section

The typical Baptist doesn't recognize this part as a valid teaching and hence the statements of faith in some churches stress the eternity of those truly saved.

There are two areas of division and separation between the Methodists and Baptists of Arminian thinking. The Methodist Arminian holds to both the loss of salvation and the ability to live perfect (sinless).

 

[Winman]

A problem with these analogies (I'll use football here) is that unless the coach actually chooses certain people to be on the team, he has no reason to call the team the "chosen ones." If he simply accepted everyone on the team, there would be no reason to say, "now since you are the chosen ones, put on these pads and go win!"

Yet We are repeatedly called God's chosen one's. What does that mean if we are not actually chosen?

-Colossians 3:12 - Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

-1 Peter 2:9 - But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light

-1 Thess. 1:4-5 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

If you want a good analogy of election, simply look at what is shown in Judges 7.

Jud 7:2 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me.
3 Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever is fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead. And there returned of the people twenty and two thousand; and there remained ten thousand.
4 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people are yet too many; bring them down unto the water, and I will try them for thee there: and it shall be, that of whom I say unto thee, This shall go with thee, the same shall go with thee; and of whomsoever I say unto thee, This shall not go with thee, the same shall not go.
5 So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink.
6 And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water.
7 And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.

God knew that only three hundred men would put their hands to their mouth and lap like a dog. It was these three hundred that God chose to fight with Gideon.

Did God cause these three hundred men to drink like a dog? No, God said he would "try" the men. It would be no test if God caused three hundred to drink like a dog and caused the rest to kneel and drink.

Note in verse 2 that God said Israel would not be able to vaunt themselves and say their own hand had saved them.

Note that in verse 4 that God said whosoever he said shall go with Gideon shall go, and whom he said shall not go should not go. God was absolutely in charge and sovereign.

Nevertheless, God chose only those three hundred who drank like a dog. God did not cause this, but he knew beforehand that only three hundred would drink this way. God determined the condition that must be met.

You will not accept it, but this is a figure of both God's foreknowledge and election in scripture.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

If you want a good analogy of election, simply look at what is shown in Judges 7.

Jud 7:2 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me.
3 Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever is fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead. And there returned of the people twenty and two thousand; and there remained ten thousand.
4 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people are yet too many; bring them down unto the water, and I will try them for thee there: and it shall be, that of whom I say unto thee, This shall go with thee, the same shall go with thee; and of whomsoever I say unto thee, This shall not go with thee, the same shall not go.
5 So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink.
6 And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water.
7 And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.

God knew that only three hundred men would put their hands to their mouth and lap like a dog. It was these three hundred that God chose to fight with Gideon.

Did God cause these three hundred men to drink like a dog? No, God said he would "try" the men. It would be no test if God caused three hundred to drink like a dog and caused the rest to kneel and drink.

Note in verse 2 that God said Israel would not be able to vaunt themselves and say their own hand had saved them.

Note that in verse 4 that God said whosoever he said shall go with Gideon shall go, and whom he said shall not go should not go. God was absolutely in charge and sovereign.

Nevertheless, God chose only those three hundred who drank like a dog. God did not cause this, but he knew beforehand that only three hundred would drink this way. God determined the condition that must be met.

You will not accept it, but this is a figure of both God's foreknowledge and election in scripture.

What is this??? A well thought out and direct argument straight from Scripture itself? Nosir....it must be false for some reason...I cannot tell you what it is yet...but it isn't "Corrective teaching" or something....somehow...this is wrong. I will lay my finger on why that is the case later.

You are somehow denying the confessions of the Puritans...and the "historic confessions".....We will take you to task on your foul use of the Scriptures later. This is unacceptable.:thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

What is this??? A well thought out and direct argument straight from Scripture itself? Nosir....it must be false for some reason...I cannot tell you what it is yet...but it isn't "Corrective teaching" or something....somehow...this is wrong. I will lay my finger on why that is the case later.

You are somehow denying the confessions of the Puritans...and the "historic confessions".....We will take you to task on your foul use of the Scriptures later. This is unacceptable.:thumbsup:

Yes, I MUST be a heretic.

Gideon is a figure of Christ, note that God had already determined those he would "give" to Gideon.

The water is a figure of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. They were all brought down to the water, but only those who humbled themselves and drank like a dog were chosen. Also, they did not kneel down like the others, they were always ready.

The three hundred are the few who will be saved and follow Jesus, as these men followed and fought with Gideon.

I'm sure no Calvinist will agree, but it is all there. I am sure my explanation of scripture will seem like pure foolishness to them.

 

[Van]

The solution to the difference between 12 Strings and Skandelon is obvious, a corporate election deals with characteristics of the group, i.e. choosing a redeemer entails choosing to redeem whoever the redeemer redeems. So the election before time was corporate. However, the method of entering that group, of being redeemed could be automatic, anyone who believes is automatically redeemed, or each person whose faith God credits as righteousness could be set apart in Christ as the method of redemption. So both sides are correct in part, but neither side presents the view that is consistent with all scripture.

Why is that?

 

[TCGreek]

Aren't you guys tired of this Arminian vs Calvinism debate?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Aren't you guys tired of this Arminian vs Calvinism debate?

I know I am, and I have resolved not to get involved with it again.

 

[Skandelon]

A problem with these analogies (I'll use football here) is that unless the coach actually chooses certain people to be on the team, he has no reason to call the team the "chosen ones." If he simply accepted everyone on the team, there would be no reason to say, "now since you are the chosen ones, put on these pads and go win!"

Yet We are repeatedly called God's chosen one's. What does that mean if we are not actually chosen?

-

Easy answer and its a direct quote from scripture:

"Many are called but few are chosen."

We are chosen. Every one is invited to the banquet feast but only those dressed in righteousness (by faith) are chosen to enter the feast. All are invited to get on the plane, all are invited to join the team, All are invited to come into the fold through the gate. That is what is meant by 'Many are called..." but only those who come in through the gate (called Christ) are chosen, which is what is meant by "few are chosen."

If a sheep comes into the fold by some other way than the gate then they are not chosen for salvation. To stick with the football analogy, the team members who try to sneak on the game field without applying, trying out, conditioning along with the team are not chosen...they are not really on the team and they can't play in the game.

 

[12strings]

Easy answer and its a direct quote from scripture:

"Many are called but few are chosen."

We are chosen. Every one is invited to the banquet feast but only those dressed in righteousness (by faith) are chosen to enter the feast. All are invited to get on the plane, all are invited to join the team, All are invited to come into the fold through the gate. That is what is meant by 'Many are called..." but only those who come in through the gate (called Christ) are chosen, which is what is meant by "few are chosen."

If a sheep comes into the fold by some other way than the gate then they are not chosen for salvation. To stick with the football analogy, the team members who try to sneak on the game field without applying, trying out, conditioning along with the team are not chosen...they are not really on the team and they can't play in the game.

Skan, and Winman, too:

So you are saying we are chosen based on our response to God's call? And anyone who would put Faith in Christ would then be chosen? I think I get what you are saying, but I'm still not sure that's a great explaination for saying that we are "Chosen" by God, but here is a illustration I just though of...tell me if this describes what you are saying:

Kids are in a big group waiting for the football coach. Kids are lined up and the coach says, "Anyone who wants me to choose you to be on the team raise your hand." If anyone raises their hand, the coach says, "Ok, come over here, you're chosen." If someone doesn't, they are not chosen.

2 more questions for SKAN regarding corporate election:

1. Would you say that in your corporate election view, we were actually chosen twice? Once from the foundation of the world corporately in Christ, and then we are individually "chosen" when we put faith in Christ? Is this the same thing that Van is saying? (We are elected in our lifetime when we put faith in Christ?)

2. Does the corporate election view exclude totally the foresight of faith view? If so, How does the corporate election view interpret "Those whom he foerknew, he predestined.

 

[Skandelon]

Skan, and Winman, too:

So you are saying we are chosen based on our response to God's call? And anyone who would put Faith in Christ would then be chosen?

Yes, with regard to the 'many are called but few are chosen' passage. But remember there is some overlap of these terms in this debate. Calvinists refer to the 'effectual or irresistible call' which they believe is the work of regeneration that empowers a person to believe the gospel call, and non-Cals believe the 'call' of God is the gospel appeal. So, it can get confusing. For Cals there is a general call (non-effectual) and the irresistible call (effectual). For us there is one enabling/empowering call which can be 'traded in for lies' or accepted, that powerful call is the Gospel. The gospel is like the invitation to the banquet.

To even be sent that invitation is being "chosen," in one sense of that term (the corporate sense). For example, in the wedding analogy the guest list is invited first and those people were considered 'chosen.' (they represented Israel) But when they turned their noses up at the invitation the Groom sends out the invitation to everyone, so in that sense they have become the 'chosen' because the Groom as chosen to invite them to the banquet. So, in one since the groups are chosen to be invited (called) but only those with faith (clothed) are chosen to enter in. In short, the invite is the corporate choosing and being clothed in wedding garments is the individual choosing... Make sense?

2 more questions for SKAN regarding corporate election:

1. Would you say that in your corporate election view, we were actually chosen twice?

Yes, kind of...like I just explain above, people are chosen to receive an invitation (granted the opportunity to enter covenant with God). Previously this was only 'available' to Israel, but now it has been granted to the Gentiles, so in that general sense God has chosen you, a Gentile, to be grafted into his tree...or gain access to covenant with God even though you are not of Israel. Secondly, you are chosen to be saved individually in Christ upon your confession of faith.

So, you are generally or corporately chosen as a Gentile to receive an invitation to the banquet, something only granted to Israel previously, but you are individually chosen to enter only if you have been clothed in the righteousness of Christ, through faith (the wedding clothes).

2. Does the corporate election view exclude totally the foresight of faith view? If so, How does the corporate election view interpret "Those whom he foerknew, he predestined.

Foreknowledge speaks to God's eternal plan for a people. Typically this language is reserved for Israel, but Paul begins to use it in reference to the Gentiles because, as he explains in Romans 9, "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one..." So, the 'elect group' is being 'cut off' while the 'non-elect group' is being 'grafted in.' But, understand that being an individual in the 'elect group' (the grafted in group) doesn't ensure salvation, it only grants one the ability to enter covenant through the prescribed conditions of the covenant maker. So, if you are a part of the group who is 'grafted in' and elected (Gentile) you still have to believe in Christ for you individually to be saved. That is why Paul speaks of them being cut off and grafted back in throughout Romans 11.

 

[Winman]

Skan, and Winman, too:

So you are saying we are chosen based on our response to God's call? And anyone who would put Faith in Christ would then be chosen? I think I get what you are saying, but I'm still not sure that's a great explaination for saying that we are "Chosen" by God, but here is a illustration I just though of...tell me if this describes what you are saying:

Kids are in a big group waiting for the football coach. Kids are lined up and the coach says, "Anyone who wants me to choose you to be on the team raise your hand." If anyone raises their hand, the coach says, "Ok, come over here, you're chosen." If someone doesn't, they are not chosen.

2 more questions for SKAN regarding corporate election:

1. Would you say that in your corporate election view, we were actually chosen twice? Once from the foundation of the world corporately in Christ, and then we are individually "chosen" when we put faith in Christ? Is this the same thing that Van is saying? (We are elected in our lifetime when we put faith in Christ?)

2. Does the corporate election view exclude totally the foresight of faith view? If so, How does the corporate election view interpret "Those whom he foerknew, he predestined.

My view is similar to Skan's but not quite the same. He does not agree with the foreknowledge view I have, Van also does not agree with my view.

But yes, I believe we are chosen IN HIM. Now Van interprets to to mean in time.

Now I am going to say something confusing, I believe we are chosen in time when we actually believe, but I also believe we were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world. Let me see if I can explain.

Image time being a circle like a clock-face. God is standing at 12 o'clock. When he looks clockwise, he sees things as they actually happen in time, just as we do. This explains statements such as when God told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear me".

But now imagine God looking counter-clockwise from the 12 o'clock position. Now he sees all things that have already taken place in time. Now he knows when a person will believe, even before they actually believe. In this view he is not waiting to know what will happen, he already knows everything that will ever happen. This is my analogy to explain the foreknowledge view.

So, when Jesus said, "Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep", this is looking in the counter-clockwise perspective, Jesus already knows they will never believe, and they were never chosen.

However, looking in the clockwise perspective, God only knows us personally when we trust in him as Galatians 4:9 says.

This explains how God can know everything, yet in some scriptures God speaks as though he learns in time (Abraham sacrificing Isaac).

Looking forward, God elects a person as they believe in time individually. But looking backwards, God knows all who will ever believe and elects them corporately.

I hope this hasn't been too confusing, it is the only way I know to explain my view.

This would explain how Paul could say he was "in Christ" in time, yet also say we were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

This view allows free will decisions, and still supports that God will bring about all things exactly according to his plan.

 

[Winman]

Skan, and Winman, too:

So you are saying we are chosen based on our response to God's call? And anyone who would put Faith in Christ would then be chosen? I think I get what you are saying, but I'm still not sure that's a great explaination for saying that we are "Chosen" by God, but here is a illustration I just though of...tell me if this describes what you are saying:

Kids are in a big group waiting for the football coach. Kids are lined up and the coach says, "Anyone who wants me to choose you to be on the team raise your hand." If anyone raises their hand, the coach says, "Ok, come over here, you're chosen." If someone doesn't, they are not chosen.

2 more questions for SKAN regarding corporate election:

1. Would you say that in your corporate election view, we were actually chosen twice? Once from the foundation of the world corporately in Christ, and then we are individually "chosen" when we put faith in Christ? Is this the same thing that Van is saying? (We are elected in our lifetime when we put faith in Christ?)

2. Does the corporate election view exclude totally the foresight of faith view? If so, How does the corporate election view interpret "Those whom he foerknew, he predestined.

My view is similar to Skan's but not quite the same. He does not agree with the foreknowledge view I have, Van also does not agree with my view.

But yes, I believe we are chosen IN HIM. Now Van interprets this to mean in time.

Now I am going to say something confusing, I believe we are chosen in time when we actually believe, but I also believe we were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world. Let me see if I can explain.

Image time being a circle like a clock-face. God is standing at 12 o'clock. When he looks clockwise, he sees things as they actually happen in time, just as we do. This explains statements such as when God told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear me".

But now imagine God looking counter-clockwise from the 12 o'clock position. Now he sees all things that have already taken place in time. Now he knows when a person will believe, even before they actually believe. In this view he is not waiting to know what will happen, he already knows everything that will ever happen. This is my analogy to explain the foreknowledge view.

So, when Jesus said, "Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep", this is looking in the counter-clockwise perspective, Jesus already knows they will never believe, and they were never chosen.

However, looking in the clockwise perspective, God only knows us personally when we trust in him as Galatians 4:9 says.

This explains how God can know everything, yet in some scriptures God speaks as though he learns in time (Abraham sacrificing Isaac).

Looking forward, God elects a person as they believe in time individually. But looking backwards, God knows all who will ever believe and elects them corporately.

I hope this hasn't been too confusing, it is the only way I know to explain my view.

This would explain how Paul could say he was "in Christ" in time, yet also say we were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

This view allows free will decisions, and still supports that God will bring about all things exactly according to his plan.