What do people in heaven.....

[menageriekeeper]

know about what is going on here on earth?

Simple enough question, right?

I put this here because I'd like to know what everyone has to say.

This came up in a discussion elsewhere (on another board) and I have yet to get why some believe that those who have gone on before are "watching" us.

My mama always said, "Dad would roll over in his grave if he knew what ___ was doing." Therefore, since Grandpa is physically incapable of rolling over being 20 years dead, I have always had the idea that those in heaven either can't see what is happening here or simply have better things to do. I lean toward the second. Why would those in heaven want to take their attention off our Lord? But I have no scripture that I can pull to mind that tells me one way or another.

So, what say ye?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The concept of more eyes watching us the better…... Motivation to righteous behavior, or at least we could hope. Spread the word!:thumbs: :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Marcia]

There is no biblical basis for saying that people in heaven can watch us or are watching us. This is superstition; it probably comes from Spiritualism, which tries to mimic Christianity.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: There is no biblical basis for saying that people in heaven can watch us or are watching us. This is superstition; it probably comes from Spiritualism, which tries to mimic Christianity.

HP: Be reasonable Marcia. There is no biblical basis for a pretribulational rapture but look at how that motivates people.:tonofbricks: Surely others watching us could only help motivate, at least a little bit. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Scarlett O.]

know about what is going on here on earth?

Simple enough question, right?

I put this here because I'd like to know what everyone has to say.

This came up in a discussion elsewhere (on another board) and I have yet to get why some believe that those who have gone on before are "watching" us.

Nope. They are not in heaven "watching" us.

Those who believe as you say are thinking of Hebrews 12:1a without taking into consideration Hebrews 12:1b or Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 12:1a says this:

Therefore, we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses....

Anytime that Paul says "therefore" (and he says it alot), you have to go back and read the prior verses.

Who makes up the "great cloud of witnesses"? The men and women in the roll call of the faithful in chapter 11.

What does Paul mean by "witness"? He doesn't mean that all of those people are looking over the clouds peeking at us and our miserable lives.

He means that they are a testimony or a witness TO us as to how to live our lives for God.

No one who has died is looking down from heaven and watching us here on earth.

Now to complete just exactly what Paul meant, you have to finish the verse.

Hebrew 12:1a and b

"Therefore, we also, who are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us."

Paul says that because we can see the testimony of those who have run the race before us, we should emulate them and run our own race.

He is not saying that they can see us.

If they could see us and our loved ones could see us, then they would see nothing but sin, death, and misery.

 

[Marcia]

HP: Be reasonable Marcia. There is no biblical basis for a pretribulational rapture but look at how that motivates people.:tonofbricks: Surely others watching us could only help motivate, at least a little bit. :smilewinkgrin:

Why do people have to attack the pre-trib rapture all the time on almost every thread here? I'm getting sick and tired of it. This is not a thread on the rapture. Please stay on topic.

Yes, there is a biblical basis for the rapture, but not for people watching us from heaven.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Sorry Marcia, I meant no offense. Possibly you will have to start showing more evidence than quoting one verse and then saying it is not proven there but rather somewhere else, only to fail to give the reference that does prove it to be true. Show us the evidence of a pretribulational rapture. :thumbs:

 

[Marcia]

Sorry Marcia, I meant no offense. Possibly you will have to start showing more evidence than quoting one verse and then saying it is not proven there but rather somewhere else, only to fail to give the reference that does prove it to be true. Show us the evidence of a pretribulational rapture. :thumbs:

This is not the topic here. And I wasn't trying to prove anything. I was answering a question about the restrainer.

You're harassing me.

 

[menageriekeeper]

LOL Scarlett! That is exactly what I told them!

Great minds think alike!

Show us the evidence of a pretribulational rapture

NOT ON THIS THREAD! If you can't contribute something useful Heavenly Pilgrim go play somewhere else.

Marcia, I don't know much about Spiritulism. Mind giving me a quick overview along with anything else you might find pertinant?

 

[Zenas]

Nope. They are not in heaven "watching" us.

Those who believe as you say are thinking of Hebrews 12:1a without taking into consideration Hebrews 12:1b or Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 12:1a says this:



Anytime that Paul says "therefore" (and he says it alot), you have to go back and read the prior verses.

Who makes up the "great cloud of witnesses"? The men and women in the roll call of the faithful in chapter 11.

What does Paul mean by "witness"? He doesn't mean that all of those people are looking over the clouds peeking at us and our miserable lives.

He means that they are a testimony or a witness TO us as to how to live our lives for God.

No one who has died is looking down from heaven and watching us here on earth.

Now to complete just exactly what Paul meant, you have to finish the verse.



Paul says that because we can see the testimony of those who have run the race before us, we should emulate them and run our own race.

He is not saying that they can see us.

If they could see us and our loved ones could see us, then they would see nothing but sin, death, and misery.

Scarlet, I beg to differ. Hebrews 12:1 refers directly to the saints of Hebrews 11 and there is nothing to indicate they cannot see us. The "cloud" of course refers to them without their resurrected bodies, which they will receive in the day of the Lord. They are certainly witnesses in the sense of the example they have set for us but they are also witnessses in the sense that they can see us. I am aware of no biblical proof to the contrary.

 

[Marcia]

NOT ON THIS THREAD! If you can't contribute something useful Heavenly Pilgrim go play somewhere else.

Marcia, I don't know much about Spiritulism. Mind giving me a quick overview along with anything else you might find pertinant?

Thanks for asking!

Spiritiualism is the belief that one can get advice from the dead. But it's more than that - it's the belief that dead people ascend to various levels, getting wiser and more spiritual at they ascend. It developed mostly in the 19th century but became a religion in the 20th century (or possibly 19th - not sure now).

They talk about God, but he's impersonal. Jesus is not the Son of God or Savior but was a medium or had mediumistic abilities. He was a man who was wise. Spiritualists have services that are very close to church services, with hymns and a minister. I went to several in college when a friend of mine was doing a project on it and had to attend Spiritualist churches.

Spiritualists believe that the dead are more alive than us. They usually believe that everyone will go to a good place they call the "other side." They think of this as heaven.

Many mediums and psychics attend spiritualist churches and/or are ministers.

The minister supposedly get messages for people in the congregation from dead relatives. I've written 3 articles on this topic - one is on my website, one in the Christian Research Journal (published in '02 and called "I See Dead People: A Look at After Death Communication"), and one was just published in the Aeropagus Journal (published by the Apologetics Resource Center in Birmingham, AL). I've also given several workshops on this topic.

Article on my website:
http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_SpiritContact1.html

Article for Christian Research Journal (this is a better article than the one above)
http://www.equip.org/atf/cf/{9C4EE03A-F988-4091-84BD-F8E70A3B0215}/DD810.pdf

I don't think the recent article is online.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Cool Marcia! I'll go read those.

Zenas, what about Hebrews 12:1 makes you think that the cloud of witnesses is "witnessing" us rather than testifying of their faith in God?

 

[Marcia]

Many Spiritualist churches have names that will not reveal that they are Spiritualist - there is one here called "The Metaphysical Chapel." Another one is called the chapel of Divine Light or something to that effect.

These places are not the same as the New Age type churches, although New Agers may attend them. New Age type churches are Unity, the Church of Religious Science, and spinoffs of these. They are not into talking to dead relatives.

Spiritualism became very popular during and after WWI when many people had lost relatives in the war and were anxious to contact them. It lost popularity after that but started to rise again in the late 90s.

TV shows like "Medium" and "Ghost Whisperer" have helped it rise again, as well as the very popular mediums Sylvia Browne and John Edward. Browne has written tons of books, including books on Jesus. Many people mistakingly think she is a Christian. ("Medium" is based on a real life medium, and James Van Praagh, a successful medium, is a co-producer of "Ghost Whisperer"). The movie "The Sixth Sense" and other movies had many themes of contact with the dead.

Spiritualism is Satan's attempt to make something that is evil sound like Christiainity (not his only attempt, of course).

 

[Scarlett O.]

Scarlet, I beg to differ. Hebrews 12:1 refers directly to the saints of Hebrews 11 and there is nothing to indicate they cannot see us. The "cloud" of course refers to them without their resurrected bodies, which they will receive in the day of the Lord. They are certainly witnesses in the sense of the example they have set for us but they are also witnessses in the sense that they can see us. I am aware of no biblical proof to the contrary.

I'm curious at your interpretation of the word, "cloud".

I've always took that to mean that there are a great number of saints that we could emulate.

I just looked at Strong's concordance and it says that the word "cloud" in Heb. 12:1 is the word, "nephos" and that it mean either "a cloud in the sky" or a "great multitude or throng".

Why would God allow these saints to look down upon our suffering and misery and sin and watch it? What would be the purpose in it?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Browne gets on my nerves. Can you say shyster? She was very irritating to me the very first time I saw her on tv. Couldn't handle more than a minute of it.

I haven't seen "Medium" or "Ghost Whisperer" though I'd probably laugh my way through a show that tried to "train" a ghost out of its bad habits! :laugh: Oh wait, that's "Dog Whisperer" and I do laugh at it, when I can stand to watch it, which isn't often. I'm terrible. I just don't aprreciate most TV shows nowdays. To much fluff!

I do know that popular culture is really enthused about the whole dead contacting the living thing. It is a very popular theme in the murder mysteries that I read from time to time. I've noticed though, that most of the authors seem to follow a common line with these themes and have often wondered why so many of them think that the dead can only communicate in certain manners. You know, I'm thinking I could find a more exciting less frightening way to communicate with the living than visions or transparent apparations, or clues to what may come. I suppose this all goes back to Spritualism. I learned something new today.

 

[Marcia]

Browne gets on my nerves. Can you say shyster? She was very irritating to me the very first time I saw her on tv. Couldn't handle more than a minute of it.

I haven't seen "Medium" or "Ghost Whisperer" though I'd probably laugh my way through a show that tried to "train" a ghost out of its bad habits! :laugh: Oh wait, that's "Dog Whisperer" and I do laugh at it, when I can stand to watch it, which isn't often. I'm terrible. I just don't aprreciate most TV shows nowdays. To much fluff!

I do know that popular culture is really enthused about the whole dead contacting the living thing. It is a very popular theme in the murder mysteries that I read from time to time. I've noticed though, that most of the authors seem to follow a common line with these themes and have often wondered why so many of them think that the dead can only communicate in certain manners. You know, I'm thinking I could find a more exciting less frightening way to communicate with the living than visions or transparent apparations, or clues to what may come. I suppose this all goes back to Spritualism. I learned something new today.

Thanks for looking at my articles and your thoughts! I could say more but it would be too off topic, though I do think Spiritualism has had an influence on our culture that some Chrisitians may not recognize.

If you ever have questions on this or related topics, just PM me or go to my site and email me from the Home page.

 

[Zenas]

Zenas, what about Hebrews 12:1 makes you think that the cloud of witnesses is "witnessing" us rather than testifying of their faith in God?

Not completely my idea, although I do agree with it. The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association runs a syndicated daily colum in which, not long ago, someone asked if her deceased husband could see her from Heaven. Here was Billy Graham's answer:

The Bible doesn’t answer all our questions about heaven. One reason is because heaven is far, far greater than anything we can ever imagine. As the Bible says, “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” (1 Corinthians 2:9).

Nevertheless, the Bible does indicate that those who have gone to heaven before us are aware of what is happening on earth. The writer of Hebrews, for example, uses the image of a great arena to illustrate this, with those who have gone before us watching and cheering us on: “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses ... let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us” (Hebrews 12:1). When Moses and Elijah returned from heaven to meet with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, they spoke about events taking place on earth (see Luke 9:30-31).

This interpretation is also consistent with a belief in the communion of saints as expressed in the Apostles Creed, although communion of saints implies a lot more than that.

 

[Zenas]

I'm curious at your interpretation of the word, "cloud".

I've always took that to mean that there are a great number of saints that we could emulate.

I just looked at Strong's concordance and it says that the word "cloud" in Heb. 12:1 is the word, "nephos" and that it mean either "a cloud in the sky" or a "great multitude or throng".

Why would God allow these saints to look down upon our suffering and misery and sin and watch it? What would be the purpose in it?

It certainly implies a great number because only two or three would not make up a cloud. A cloud is a gaseous substance, as opposed to a solid or liquid. If these witnesses were people with bodies, they would likely be called a multitude or a crowd. But since they are spirit beings without bodies, they are ethereal in nature, i.e., a cloud.

 

[Amy.G]

The great cloud of witnesses is a reference back to Hebrews chapter 11 in which the author tells us of the OT witnesses, what we commonly refer to as the "hall of faith".
Verse 1 of chapter 12 begins with "wherefore", making it connect to the previous chapter and continuing the same thought.

There is no implication of souls in heaven watching us.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Not completely my idea, although I do agree with it. The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association runs a syndicated daily colum in which, not long ago, someone asked if her deceased husband could see her from Heaven. Here was Billy Graham's answer:

"Nevertheless, the Bible does indicate that those who have gone to heaven before us are aware of what is happening on earth. The writer of Hebrews, for example, uses the image of a great arena to illustrate this, with those who have gone before us watching and cheering us on: “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses ... let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us” (Hebrews 12:1).

As much as I love Billy Graham, he is wrong here. There is nothing in Hebrews 12:1 that implies that the word "witness" is describing the saints watching us. The concept of "cheering us on" is not implied. It's his spin on the verse.

"When Moses and Elijah returned from heaven to meet with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, they spoke about events taking place on earth (see Luke 9:30-31)."

He's wrong here, too.

They did not speak about events taking place on earth at the time in the lives of humanity. They spoke about Christ's upcoming sacrificial death. And I can't say with authority, but my guess is that Jesus did most of the talking.