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What do people in heaven.....

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
They can see if God is avenging their deaths or not. This does not indicate in any way they can see what is happening on earth. This verse is not support for saying people in heaven can see us on earth.
Well, they clearly know God has not avenged their deaths on earth...how? You say it doesn't indicate whether they can see what occurs on earth or not, but they clearly know God has not done so, and will. There is nothing there to indicate that God has told them He hasn't, they ask an open question, to which a reponse is given. We'll agree to disagree on this one.
Well, it sounds like something that appeals to you, but that does not make it true.
Did I say that? I simply said it is a possibility, and if it aligns with God's character, who are you to accuse it of "spiritualism"?
So he "truly believed" it - that means nothing. People believe all kinds of stuff that are not true.
No kidding. Was there anything there that goes against God's character?
 

Zenas

Active Member
We are part of a communion we cannot see. We are a part of a body that is made up of all the redeemed throughout all the ages and we are even now at this moment in communion with all of them. Turn with me please to Hebrews Chapter 12. In Hebrews Chapter 12, we begin with verse 1:

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

This great cloud of witnesses is not made up of persons we can see, but it is made up of a cloud of witnesses of persons who can see us, who know us. They, though dead, yet live. Hebrews 12 follows Hebrews 11—the recitation of this great pantheon of faith. But it doesn’t end merely with the recitation that we are to run a race with the communion of saints as the host of witnesses observing, surrounding us. But rather we go to verse 18:

For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. For they could not bear the command, "IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED." And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling." But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Your heart should be stirred. The blood should be coursing just a little faster. We haven’t come like the people of the old covenant to a mountain that is shaking with fire and trembling. That is a part of our story but instead we have come to Mount Zion. By God’s grace we have come to the city of the living God. We have come to a heavenly Jerusalem. We are already there. Our citizenship is already there. We are already there by God’s grace. We are already there by faith. We have come to myriads of angels. We have come to the general assembly.

Albert R. Mohler on the Communion of Saints. November 11, 2008. (emphasis added)
 

menageriekeeper

Active Member
Yeah well, that presumes something we can't fathom: the condition of MLK's heart.

Makes for a nice sounding thought that I'm sure was directed exactly toward those in the crowd who hold to such without ever questioning whether there is a sound foundation for the idea.

btw, I am rarely swayed by the "popular" thoughts of a "popular" person. I much perfer to be led directly by scripture, believing that God gave me a brain and a Bible for a reason.

Zenas, I missed your last post somehow the other day.

While I don't exactly discount that there is some connection between our spirits and those of Christians who have passed from this life("we are all of one spirit"), I still can't see those dead Christians bothering to notice the condition of my house(remember the OP was directly concerned with how much of our daily lives are being "watched" by our ancestors).

There is scripture that says "there will be rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents" (Cindi paraphrase from her faulty memory), but that scripture doesn't appear to explain exactly how those doing the rejoicing heard the news.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Marcia said:
And I disagree strongly with this.
I do as well, but probably not for the same reasons. Race is not an issue in Heaven. Now, I can see this scenario taking place if Obama puts his faith in Christ alone, though.
 

menageriekeeper

Active Member
Hey Webdog, Lazurus wan't in torment. The rich man was in torment. :D

Yes, the rich man knew they hadn't repented (spiritual condition), but there's no indication that he knew MORE (physical condtion) than that one fact.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
menageriekeeper said:
Hey Webdog, Lazurus wan't in torment. The rich man was in torment. :D

Yes, the rich man knew they hadn't repented (spiritual condition), but there's no indication that he knew MORE (physical condtion) than that one fact.
:laugh: it was early...
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
The picture being presented in Heb 12:1 is a picture of the Roman's games... with the cloud of witnesses cheering us on as we run the race... the witnesses in the stands...
 

THEOLDMAN

New Member
back to the original question---- I believe you hunt alot. My Indian buddy calls it "the happy hunting grounds" . I'm ready !
 

Marcia

Active Member
webdog said:
I do as well, but probably not for the same reasons. Race is not an issue in Heaven. Now, I can see this scenario taking place if Obama puts his faith in Christ alone, though.

Well, I don't think people in heaven rejoice, I think it's the angels.
 

Marcia

Active Member
menageriekeeper said:
Yeah well, that presumes something we can't fathom: the condition of MLK's heart.

Makes for a nice sounding thought that I'm sure was directed exactly toward those in the crowd who hold to such without ever questioning whether there is a sound foundation for the idea.

btw, I am rarely swayed by the "popular" thoughts of a "popular" person. I much perfer to be led directly by scripture, believing that God gave me a brain and a Bible for a reason.

Zenas, I missed your last post somehow the other day.

While I don't exactly discount that there is some connection between our spirits and those of Christians who have passed from this life("we are all of one spirit"), I still can't see those dead Christians bothering to notice the condition of my house(remember the OP was directly concerned with how much of our daily lives are being "watched" by our ancestors).

There is scripture that says "there will be rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents" (Cindi paraphrase from her faulty memory), but that scripture doesn't appear to explain exactly how those doing the rejoicing heard the news.

It's the angels who rejoice, not people:

"In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." Luke 15.10

Details matter!
 

Marcia

Active Member
And we know today that Dr. King and a great cloud of witnesses are shouting in heaven

This is wrong for many reasons:
1. The cloud of witnesses are not people looking at us from heaven
2. We don't know if King was saved
3. They would not be shouting joyfully over Obama's election
 

menageriekeeper

Active Member
Marcia, you are so right. I told you my memory was faulty.

Tim, back to Hebrews. Chapter 11 is all about those who's experiences witness TOO us. How then can chapter 12 be a picture of those who would testify ABOUT us. Or cheer us on as it were.

Even so, the real question is how much individual info do those in heaven have about our lives. Is my grandma watching me type on my computer? Even witnesses in the stands can only see so much of a runners race. It's not like they are right beside them every step of the way.
 

Zenas

Active Member
menageriekeeper said:
Even so, the real question is how much individual info do those in heaven have about our lives. Is my grandma watching me type on my computer? Even witnesses in the stands can only see so much of a runners race. It's not like they are right beside them every step of the way.
Why do you have such a pedestrian view of Heaven? When I get to Heaven, I expect to be able to move through time and space at will. I expect to be able to see and hear everything on earth--all at once. Perhaps I will even be able to know what everyone is thinking. We won't be hindered by the constraints of our bodies, the constraints of gravity, the constraints of finite thinking. And I sure hope I won't be disappointed.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Zenas said:
Why do you have such a pedestrian view of Heaven? When I get to Heaven, I expect to be able to move through time and space at will. I expect to be able to see and hear everything on earth--all at once. Perhaps I will even be able to know what everyone is thinking. We won't be hindered by the constraints of our bodies, the constraints of gravity, the constraints of finite thinking. And I sure hope I won't be disappointed.
This is Christoplatonism. We will never be omniscient, a trait only God has. We will still be human. If we die prior to Christ's return, we will go to be with Him in the intermediate Heaven. Eventually New Earth will be Heaven, complete with our resurrected...physical bodies, complete with gravity, animals, trees, cities, etc. This ethereal spiritual thinking has crept into the Church, and unfortunately many believer buy into it. I would suggest reading Heaven by Dr. Randy Alcorn. Excellent read.
 

InChrist

New Member
webdog said:
This is Christoplatonism. We will never be omniscient, a trait only God has. We will still be human. If we die prior to Christ's return, we will go to be with Him in the intermediate Heaven. Eventually New Earth will be Heaven, complete with our resurrected...physical bodies, complete with gravity, animals, trees, cities, etc. This ethereal spiritual thinking has crept into the Church, and unfortunately many believer buy into it. I would suggest reading Heaven by Dr. Randy Alcorn. Excellent read.

Actually, God says that He is creating and new heaven AND a new earth.

Remember that the nation of Israel has never been promised a place in heaven, but instead has the promised LAND to look forward to, I believe there will be earthly constraints upon God's chosen EARTHLY people, who will dwell in the New Earth.

But I don't believe this is true of the Body of Christ. We are heavenly citizens with heavenly blessings and will dwell with Christ in the New Heaven. I believe we will have heavenly bodies of likeness to Jesus Christ's resurrected body which does not have the physical constraints that we have at present.
 

Marcia

Active Member
Zenas said:
Why do you have such a pedestrian view of Heaven? When I get to Heaven, I expect to be able to move through time and space at will. I expect to be able to see and hear everything on earth--all at once. Perhaps I will even be able to know what everyone is thinking. We won't be hindered by the constraints of our bodies, the constraints of gravity, the constraints of finite thinking. And I sure hope I won't be disappointed.

I agree with Webdog on this. What you are describing is akin to saying we will be omniscient and have superpowers. It is true we will probably not have the physical constraints we have now, but other than that, there is nothing to indicate we would have some kind of ability to know thoughts of others and certainly we will not have infinite thinking! We are not going to be gods.
 
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