What do people in heaven.....

[menageriekeeper]

I'll have to disagree with Billy Graham here too for the same reasons that Scarlett has specified.

I'm not real familiar with the Apostles Creed or what is says on the "communion of the saints". Care to enlighten me? Links will be fine.

 

[webdog]

There is no biblical basis for saying that people in heaven can watch us or are watching us. This is superstition; it probably comes from Spiritualism, which tries to mimic Christianity.

I disagree. Those martyred knew that their deaths were not avenged yet, and they asked when it was going to take place. Clearly they knew what was going on here.
Rev. 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

While they may be the only ones, we don't know, but I believe if it brings honor and glory to God to allow someone in Heaven to witness what happens here on earth, there is nothing superstitious or "spiritualistic" about that. I can see God pulling someone aside in Heaven to witness the rebirth of a person they shared the Gospel with or allowing a first time grandmother who passed away during the pregnancy of their daughter to witness the birth. This all aligns with God's character, and does not violate this or His Word.

I was able to witness a pastor give the eulogy at his father's funeral. His father was born deaf. The pastor truly believed that his message was the first his father ever heard him preach.

 

[Jim1999]

I don't have a definitive answer to this question. I can make a few speculations. If I can look back to earth, I just might be sad, and I can't see sadness in heaven. I just might see those who mistreated me, and seek justice. I doubt if vengeance will be a part of my heavenly nature.

I do know that I will bow before my King and Saviour Jesus Christ and rejoice always in Him and delight in His presence.

Will it be a new city and earth such as we know it now and societies set up to sojourn under His jurisdiction? Perhaps.

I know that I will be at absolute peace and joy for all eternity and whatever God has in store for me will greatly benefit me as I see Him.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[menageriekeeper]

Okay, what does this scripture have to say to us about what the dead know and can we use this for a definitive answer?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6: Also their love and their hatred and their envy, is now perished; neither have they an more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. (bolding mine)

 

[webdog]

Okay, what does this scripture have to say to us about what the dead know and can we use this for a definitive answer?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6: Also their love and their hatred and their envy, is now perished; neither have they an more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. (bolding mine)

Since Scripture doesn't contradict (Rev. 6:10), this is speaking of the body being in the ground and not the "person".

 

[menageriekeeper]

Perhaps, but you get to explain the apparant contradition of the end of verse 6 (above) with the passage in Rev. Cause it seems clear that those souls under the alter at least had an opinion on what should be done to those who had killed them, yet the verse I posted says "they have no portion".

Sooo, care to venture a guess?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Since Scripture doesn't contradict (Rev. 6:10), this is speaking of the body being in the ground and not the "person".

So when we die we're basically mechanical souls without emotions etc...? I think that verse isn't about the hereafter as much about how once your dead you don't interact with the living. It almost seems that there is a close relationship between the Jewish version of the after life in these verses and the early Greek View of Hades. Both were just a gathering place of the dead. Good, bad or indifferent.

 

[webdog]

Perhaps, but you get to explain the apparant contradition of the end of verse 6 (above) with the passage in Rev. Cause it seems clear that those souls under the alter at least had an opinion on what should be done to those who had killed them, yet the verse I posted says "they have no portion".

Sooo, care to venture a guess?

Where do you see an opinion? I see them asking God when He will avenge their deaths, not that He should or how to avenge their deaths. It's apparent this has already been told to them that this would happen. No contradiction.

 

[webdog]

So when we die we're basically mechanical souls without emotions etc...? I think that verse isn't about the hereafter as much about how once your dead you don't interact with the living. It almost seems that there is a close relationship between the Jewish version of the after life in these verses and the early Greek View of Hades. Both were just a gathering place of the dead. Good, bad or indifferent.

Whoever said that? When we die, our bodies go to the grave, "we" go to be with the Lord until the resurrection. All memories, emotions, etc. go with us, they don't stay in the grave. That is how those under the throne were able to remember what happened to them, and are apparently anxious about God doing what He promised...all while their bodies were in the grave.

 

[menageriekeeper]

What I see them saying is:

"how long you gonna wait to avenge us Lord?"

If they didn't care if they were avenged they wouldn't have been complaining about the wait!

But Ecc. says they have no portion with anything done on the earth forever.

However, I'm certain an act like vengence of the Lord wouldn't go unnoticed in heaven so its possible that these souls only know that nothing in heaven has occured yet and have no idea what is going on on the earth.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Whoever said that? When we die, our bodies go to the grave, "we" go to be with the Lord until the resurrection. All memories, emotions, etc. go with us, they don't stay in the grave. That is how those under the throne were able to remember what happened to them, and are apparently anxious about God doing what He promised...all while their bodies were in the grave.

I'm just referring to your quote:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6: Also their love and their hatred and their envy, is now perished; neither have they an more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. (bolding mine)

This verse isn't a good verse to whether those with the Lord are viewing things on earth or not. Which ultimately is my point. Its stating the dead are not here and resembles the Greek view of the dead. is all I'm saying.

 

[menageriekeeper]

LOL, that wasn't webdogs quote, that was mine.

And I have little to no idea what the Greeks view of the dead was(is?).

Personally though, while I agree that it does say the dead are not here, but it also clearly says they have no portion here either. What does that mean to you in light of the OP that asks what the dead see/pay attention to/know of life on the earth now that they are no longer a part of it?

Remember, the person I was conversing with in the beginning held the view that her relatives and friends that had gone on before were "watching" her every move. Okay, maybe not quite that dramatic, but pretty close.

 

[Zenas]

.I'm not real familiar with the Apostles Creed or what is says on the "communion of the saints". Care to enlighten me? Links will be fine.

Sure, here it is. There are newer versions but they all contain the communion of saints language.

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

 

[Martin Luther]

know about what is going on here on earth?

Simple enough question, right?

I put this here because I'd like to know what everyone has to say.

This came up in a discussion elsewhere (on another board) and I have yet to get why some believe that those who have gone on before are "watching" us.

My mama always said, "Dad would roll over in his grave if he knew what ___ was doing." Therefore, since Grandpa is physically incapable of rolling over being 20 years dead, I have always had the idea that those in heaven either can't see what is happening here or simply have better things to do. I lean toward the second. Why would those in heaven want to take their attention off our Lord? But I have no scripture that I can pull to mind that tells me one way or another.

So, what say ye?

Float around on clouds and play golden harps while wearing white robes.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Well ML, of course they drive clouds. Anything else would scratch up the streets! :laugh:

But I don't want to know what they are doing, I want to know what they know about what we are doing.

Okay Zenas, I am more familiar with that than I thought. I have at least read what you posted before. Would you happen to have a link that posts scriptures that explain the points of the creed? Particularly those that explain the "communion of the saints".

 

[Zenas]

Okay Zenas, I am more familiar with that than I thought. I have at least read what you posted before. Would you happen to have a link that posts scriptures that explain the points of the creed? Particularly those that explain the "communion of the saints".

I don't have a link that posts scriptures explaining the Apostles Creed. However, Albert Mohler, President of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, did a series of sermons that cover the entire creed and posted them on his website in MP3 format. If you go there, these sermons start 8/21/2007 and end 11/21/2008. Here is the link: http://www.albertmohler.com/audio_list.php

 

[Marcia]

The great cloud of witnesses is a reference back to Hebrews chapter 11 in which the author tells us of the OT witnesses, what we commonly refer to as the "hall of faith".
Verse 1 of chapter 12 begins with "wherefore", making it connect to the previous chapter and continuing the same thought.

There is no implication of souls in heaven watching us.

I agree with Amy and Scarlett O. on this.

 

[Marcia]

I disagree. Those martyred knew that their deaths were not avenged yet, and they asked when it was going to take place. Clearly they knew what was going on here.
Rev. 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

They can see if God is avenging their deaths or not. This does not indicate in any way they can see what is happening on earth. This verse is not support for saying people in heaven can see us on earth.

While they may be the only ones, we don't know, but I believe if it brings honor and glory to God to allow someone in Heaven to witness what happens here on earth, there is nothing superstitious or "spiritualistic" about that. I can see God pulling someone aside in Heaven to witness the rebirth of a person they shared the Gospel with or allowing a first time grandmother who passed away during the pregnancy of their daughter to witness the birth. This all aligns with God's character, and does not violate this or His Word.

Well, it sounds like something that appeals to you, but that does not make it true.

I was able to witness a pastor give the eulogy at his father's funeral. His father was born deaf. The pastor truly believed that his message was the first his father ever heard him preach

So he "truly believed" it - that means nothing. People believe all kinds of stuff that are not true.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I agree with Amy and Scarlett O. on this.

I agree with the three of you.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Sorry Marcia, I meant no offense. Possibly you will have to start showing more evidence than quoting one verse and then saying it is not proven there but rather somewhere else, only to fail to give the reference that does prove it to be true. Show us the evidence of a pretribulational rapture. :thumbs:

There is so much evidence, that when the evidence is listed, people get bored. Evidently more people are interested in chanting their mantra: "Show us the evidence of a pretribulational rapture" then inspecting that evidence when it is presented.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=9

post #86 and #87 shows 13 reasons just on a study of just ONE word in the New Testament. Nobody even acknowledged that the posts exist.