What do people in heaven.....

[webdog]

Actually, God says that He is creating and new heaven AND a new earth.

Remember that the nation of Israel has never been promised a place in heaven, but instead has the promised LAND to look forward to, I believe there will be earthly constraints upon God's chosen EARTHLY people, who will dwell in the New Earth.

But I don't believe this is true of the Body of Christ. We are heavenly citizens with heavenly blessings and will dwell with Christ in the New Heaven. I believe we will have heavenly bodies of likeness to Jesus Christ's resurrected body which does not have the physical constraints that we have at present.

Scripture says we are joint heirs of Christ, and will rule with Him...here...on the New Earth. The reference to a new Heaven and New Earth is speaking of total redemption of the universe. Revelation is clear that God will choose to dwell with man...here...on the New Earth. We were created for this planet, and God's plan has never changed from that. We along with the earth will be resurrected someday.

 

[Zenas]

Webdog and Marcia, I respect your opinions but I can't agree. The fact is we don't know exactly what things will be like in Heaven. The Bible provides clues but it doesn't really spell it out. I think we will be virtually ominscient and omnipotent. In fact, I believe the only power God reserves to Himself is the power to create things out of nothing. This is not just wild speculation.

First, we have scripture passages like Hebrews 12:22-23, 1 Corinthians 13:12 and 1 Corinthians 15:42-54. These indicate that things are going to be very different in Heaven.

Second, just consider what we can do now that would have been unthinkable only a century ago, things like electronic transmission of messages and images like we do on this board without even thinking about it. Things like organ transplants, or replacement of human organs with man made devises. Things like the ability to vaporize an entire city with one nuclear device. And these inventions came about with our feeble human minds. I don't think we are capable of imagining the powers we will have as we dwell in our changed and spiritual bodies.

It may well be that we will always be earth dwellers but we won't be confined to this earth. We will have the ability to move through time and space at will.

 

[webdog]

Webdog and Marcia, I respect your opinions but I can't agree. The fact is we don't know exactly what things will be like in Heaven.

True, but Scripture does give us a pretty good idea. It is not what you have put forth, though.

I think we will be virtually ominscient and omnipotent. In fact, I believe the only power God reserves to Himself is the power to create things out of nothing. This is not just wild speculation.

It's not speculation...it's heresy. This is VERY mormonesque. We will not be "gods", or share virtually every characteristic with God but the ability to create. We will be human, as we are now, without the taint of sin, in a body that will never die. We will forever be learning, developing, making new friendships, discovering, etc. We will NEVER be as you have stated. YOu know what a human consisits of, and the characteristics you mention have never been, nor will ever be a human characteristic.

First, we have scripture passages like Hebrews 12:22-23, 1 Corinthians 13:12 and 1 Corinthians 15:42-54. These indicate that things are going to be very different in Heaven.

You don't think the romoval of all sin and death will be "very different"?

Second, just consider what we can do now that would have been unthinkable only a century ago, things like electronic transmission of messages and images like we do on this board without even thinking about it. Things like organ transplants, or replacement of human organs with man made devises. Things like the ability to vaporize an entire city with one nuclear device. And these inventions came about with our feeble human minds. I don't think we are capable of imagining the powers we will have as we dwell in our changed and spiritual bodies.

I agree the human mind is a wonderful thing, afterall we were made in God's image (not to become gods). Imagine the things that will be learned and discovered over an eternity! We will still be human, though, and we will never be on God's level. The Bible says we will be "like" Christ, but that is speaking of having no sin nature and a body that will never perish, not being on the level as Christ. He had a spiritual body...but it was also physical, that could eat, be touched, walk, etc. Christoplatonism teaches that a spiritual body means we will not have physical bodies, but that is plain silly. Christ had just that.

It may well be that we will always be earth dwellers but we won't be confined to this earth. We will have the ability to move through time and space at will.

Maybe. If it aligns with God's character and will...maybe. Time will never end, as is often taught. There is one passage of Scripture in the KJV that mentions this, but in context is not speaking of time ending. Time was created as a measurement, for being bound by time...humans. We will never stop being humans. In fact, if there is not time, there can be no music, as music is based on timing, yet we know that there will be, and is music in Heaven.

Seriously, please pick up a copy of Heaven by Dr. Randy Alcorn. I believe every christian should read this book, and put aside the mistruths that have seeped into today's church regarding our eternal destination. We spend so much time studying different aspects of theology, and virtually no time studying where we will be spending eternity. It's like going on a vacation to a place you have never been and instead of studying the destination, we ignore it.

Last point, Isaiah's prophecies regarding Christ were 100% literal and true. Why would his prophecies regarding Heaven be any different, and less literal and true?

 

[Zenas]

Webdog said:

True, but Scripture does give us a pretty good idea. It is not what you have put forth, though.

I don't know that my idea is less scriptural than yours. I note that you haven't quoted any scripture to back up your position.

It's not speculation...it's heresy. This is VERY mormonesque. We will not be "gods", or share virtually every characteristic with God but the ability to create. We will be human, as we are now, without the taint of sin, in a body that will never die. We will forever be learning, developing, making new friendships, discovering, etc. We will NEVER be as you have stated. YOu know what a human consisits of, and the characteristics you mention have never been, nor will ever be a human characteristic.

Call it mormonesque or whatever suits your fancy, but I'm not saying we will be gods. We will always be lower than God. Frankly, however, I wonder if you perhaps have too low a view of both God and man.

You don't think the romoval of all sin and death will be "very different"?

This is a nonsequiter to what I said, i.e., that things will be very different in Heaven. Perhaps you read it wrong.

I agree the human mind is a wonderful thing, afterall we were made in God's image (not to become gods). Imagine the things that will be learned and discovered over an eternity! We will still be human, though, and we will never be on God's level. The Bible says we will be "like" Christ, but that is speaking of having no sin nature and a body that will never perish, not being on the level as Christ. He had a spiritual body...but it was also physical, that could eat, be touched, walk, etc. Christoplatonism teaches that a spiritual body means we will not have physical bodies, but that is plain silly. Christ had just that.

I never heard of Christoplatonism but here is what I believe. When we die we will either go the Heaven or to Hell. However, we will exist as spirit beings until we are reunited with our bodies at the time of Christ's return. However, the bodies with which we are reunited will be immortal and able to accomplish superhuman things, such as passing through walls, moving through time and space and processing information better and faster than the best computer ever built. Yes, I know this is not found in scripture but I don't see where your view of eternity is found in scripture either.

Maybe. If it aligns with God's character and will...maybe. Time will never end, as is often taught. There is one passage of Scripture in the KJV that mentions this, but in context is not speaking of time ending. Time was created as a measurement, for being bound by time...humans. We will never stop being humans. In fact, if there is not time, there can be no music, as music is based on timing, yet we know that there will be, and is music in Heaven.

Seriously, please pick up a copy of Heaven by Dr. Randy Alcorn. I believe every christian should read this book, and put aside the mistruths that have seeped into today's church regarding our eternal destination. We spend so much time studying different aspects of theology, and virtually no time studying where we will be spending eternity. It's like going on a vacation to a place you have never been and instead of studying the destination, we ignore it.

Last point, Isaiah's prophecies regarding Christ were 100% literal and true. Why would his prophecies regarding Heaven be any different, and less literal and true?

I agree there will be some sense of time in Heaven. Otherwise, the saints under the alter would not have been wondering "how long?"

I will take a look at Randy Alcorn's book.

Since I don't recall Isaiah's prophecies about Heaven, how about giving me a cite?

 

[webdog]

I don't know that my idea is less scriptural than yours. I note that you haven't quoted any scripture to back up your position.

Attributing attributes that belong only to God is unscriptural.

Call it mormonesque or whatever suits your fancy, but I'm not saying we will be gods. We will always be lower than God. Frankly, however, I wonder if you perhaps have too low a view of both God and man.

But you are saying we will be gods whether you realize it or not. Like I said, when you give man attributes that belong to God alone, you are putting man on par with Him in some aspects. We are unworthy to even be mentioned in the same breath as God!

I never heard of Christoplatonism but here is what I believe. When we die we will either go the Heaven or to Hell. However, we will exist as spirit beings until we are reunited with our bodies at the time of Christ's return. However, the bodies with which we are reunited will be immortal and able to accomplish superhuman things, such as passing through walls, moving through time and space and processing information better and faster than the best computer ever built. Yes, I know this is not found in scripture but I don't see where your view of eternity is found in scripture either.

My entire view is based on Scripture, and what it says about New Earth.
It's specualtion at best to say we will be able to accomplish superhuman feats, and I don't believe we will pass through walls. Just because Jesus did, doesn't mean we will be able to, He is God, we are not. Jesus was also able to "hide himself" from the crowds and do other miraculous things in His pre-resurrection body. To say we will be able to do these things is reading into Scripture.

I agree there will be some sense of time in Heaven. Otherwise, the saints under the alter would not have been wondering "how long?"

I will take a look at Randy Alcorn's book.

I'm glad, you will thoroughly enjoy it. I wish every believer would read it.

Since I don't recall Isaiah's prophecies about Heaven, how about giving me a cite?

Isaiah 60, and chapters 65 and 66

 

[Thinkingstuff]

They do really cool stuff.

And it goes on forever.


And its cool.


However, personally I like CS Lewis views of Heaven mixed with a little George Macdonald.

 

[Marcia]

Posted by Zenas
However, the bodies with which we are reunited will be immortal and able to accomplish superhuman things, such as passing through walls, moving through time and space and processing information better and faster than the best computer ever built. Yes, I know this is not found in scripture but I don't see where your view of eternity is found in scripture either.

I agree with what Webdog has said.

First of all, there is nowhere in scripture that says Jesus passed through a door or wall. The passage people use for this does not say this - it says he appeared in the room. He could probably go from one place to another (which other passages support) which does not mean he had to pass through a wall. It is also clear from scripture that Jesus had a solid body after his resurrection.

I am sure we will have abilities we do not have now, but the point to me is that we do not really know what those are. God does not give us a clue, except that our bodies will be glorified like Jesus'.

We will not be Jesus, so we should be careful to ascribe all He did as something we will do.

Also, it seems our main preoccupation will be worshiping God, if we look at Revelation, so focusing on what we will do is a little man-centered, imo.

 

[tinytim]

It's the angels who rejoice, not people:

"In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." Luke 15.10

Details matter!

Right, details matter..
I enlarged the details I want to point out..

It doesn't say the angels rejoice... but the joy is in the presence of the angels...

Saints that have went on are in the presence of the angels...

 

[Marcia]

Right, details matter..
I enlarged the details I want to point out..

It doesn't say the angels rejoice... but the joy is in the presence of the angels...

Saints that have went on are in the presence of the angels...

I see what you are saying, but it does not say saints. And if this is the only passage to use to support that view, then it is certainly not enough. Joy in the presence of angels can also mean joy in the midst of the angels - it does not mean joy among the saints.

 

[Marcia]

NET Bible note:

Joy in the presence of God’s angels is a way of referring to God’s joy as well without having to name him explicitly. Contemporary Judaism tended to refer to God indirectly where possible out of reverence or respect for the divine name.

 

[tinytim]

That makes sense Marcia...

I guess I am sentimental.. I like to think that grandmothers know when the grandsons they have prayed for on earth get saved...

But that is relying on feelings, huh?

 

[webdog]

That makes sense Marcia...

I guess I am sentimental.. I like to think that grandmothers know when the grandsons they have prayed for on earth get saved...

But that is relying on feelings, huh?

Not at all. If anything, It's Marcia that cannot prove a negative, but we have countless Scripture to prove that if something brings glory and honor to God, he'll do it. While actions and beliefs should not rely on feelings, if they align with God's will, they are perfectly fine.

 

[Marcia]

Not at all. If anything, It's Marcia that cannot prove a negative, but we have countless Scripture to prove that if something brings glory and honor to God, he'll do it. While actions and beliefs should not rely on feelings, if they align with God's will, they are perfectly fine.

There is zero evidence in the Bible that people in heaven can see us or know what is going on here now.

Personally, I find it rather creepy and I'm glad there is no such evidence. That God watches me and knows what I am doing and thinking is enough.

 

[Marcia]

That makes sense Marcia...

I guess I am sentimental.. I like to think that grandmothers know when the grandsons they have prayed for on earth get saved...

But that is relying on feelings, huh?

Yeah, you are just a big ol' sentimental guy! We love ya, Tim! :wavey:

 

[webdog]

There is zero evidence in the Bible that people in heaven can see us or know what is going on here now.

Personally, I find it rather creepy and I'm glad there is no such evidence. That God watches me and knows what I am doing and thinking is enough.

There's evidence...but it's dismissed. As I have maintained, the martyr's in Revelation KNOW that there deaths have not been avenged, they are not guessing there, they KNOW...that's why they ask "how much longer". That's at least one group of humans in Heaven with knowledge of what's happening on earth, and it's speculation at best to assume they know this through secondhand sources, not to mention that Christ, being 100% human also, also knows what is happening here.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There's evidence...but it's dismissed. As I have maintained, the martyr's in Revelation KNOW that there deaths have not been avenged, they are not guessing there, they KNOW...that's why they ask "how much longer". That's at least one group of humans in Heaven with knowledge of what's happening on earth, and it's speculation at best to assume they know this through secondhand sources, not to mention that Christ, being 100% human also, also knows what is happening here.

thats a good point :thumbsup:

 

[Marcia]

There's evidence...but it's dismissed. As I have maintained, the martyr's in Revelation KNOW that there deaths have not been avenged, they are not guessing there, they KNOW...that's why they ask "how much longer". That's at least one group of humans in Heaven with knowledge of what's happening on earth, and it's speculation at best to assume they know this through secondhand sources, not to mention that Christ, being 100% human also, also knows what is happening here.

They know their deaths have not been avenged because they can tell from heaven that this is the case.

This is very thin support for belief that people in heaven can see things on earth. One could also argue that they know their deaths have not been avenged because God has told them that the deaths have not been avenged. So this is not evidence.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

They know their deaths have not been avenged because they can tell from heaven that this is the case.

This is very thin support for belief that people in heaven can see things on earth. One could also argue that they know their deaths have not been avenged because God has told them that the deaths have not been avenged. So this is not evidence.

Angles know whats going on the earth. These Martyrs obviously know that justice has not been fulfilled. Both Martyrs and Angles are in heaven so they can just as easily have seen it for themselves. No big deal.

 

[webdog]

They know their deaths have not been avenged because they can tell from heaven that this is the case.

How? How can they "tell"?

This is very thin support for belief that people in heaven can see things on earth. One could also argue that they know their deaths have not been avenged because God has told them that the deaths have not been avenged. So this is not evidence.

The evidence is they know. If this knowledge were from God, it would be complete and He wouldn't be telling them to wait.
Since Christ IS 100% human too, it is not a stretch for those who pass away and are told will be like Him to witness circumstances that align with His will. I don't believe He allows them to witness heinous acts of sin, but maybe He does if it allows them to praise Him all that much more for redeeming them from that.

 

[Zenas]

Consider Jeremiah 31:15:

Thus says the LORD: "A voice is heard in Ramah,
lamentation and bitter weeping.
Rachel is weeping for her children;
she refuses to be comforted for her children,
because they are no more."

This was fulfilled in Matthew 2:18. Why is Rachel weeping if she is unaware of the holocaust transpiring on the earth?