What Do You Believe about Demonic Instrumental Music?

[Aaron]

God's use of trumpets is not just in time past (1 Thess. 4:16-17, etc).

Sinai, the thunder and the lightning, the cloud, the fire, the trumpet sound (not trumpet music), the voice, all these were types and shadows. They were not the real things. Christ bore the real things on the Cross.

They did not hear 'God's trumpet,' or the sound of the music of heaven at Sinai. Sinai was all about terror. Heb. 12:18 ff. I'm sitting rather pretty in the assurance that the trumpet blast was just that.

As for your claim that a trumpet blast is not music, there is no Scripture that says that music is such and such but not such and such.

There's no Scripture that tells me what beauty is, either, but I sure know it when I see it.

The Spirit says the following:

Corinthians 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

Yes. Notice that it's the flutes and harps that give a plurality of distinct sounds, and the sound of the trumpet is singular.

The only way that you can claim the sound of the trumpet at Sinai was not music is to show that only one note was played and held for the entire period. Good luck with showing that was true.

I don't need luck, just the ability to read.

Furthermore, Reveille is used as a signal and it certainly is music and is taught to music students as music to play.

Irrelevant.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Yes. Notice that it's the flutes and harps that give a plurality of distinct sounds, and the sound of the trumpet is singular.

Actually, it is very common for a Scripture writer to use a singular noun as a collective singular. For example,

Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Revelation 14:2 καὶ ἤκουσα φωνὴν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, ὡς φωνὴν ὑδάτων πολλῶν, καὶ ὡς φωνὴν βροντῆς μεγάλης· καὶ φωνὴν ἤκουσα κιθαρῳδῶν κιθαριζόντων ἐν ταῖς κιθάραις αὐτῶν.

It is very plain that the many waters and the many harpers harping with their harps were not producing one single sound in the sense of playing only one tone one time.

Concerning the singular noun in 1 Cor 14:8, that singular does not prove anything about what was played by the trumpet. In fact, the meaning of what Paul has just taught in 14:7 requires that the trumpet (or any other instrument) has to play a distinction in tones for any intelligible meaning to be communicated:

1 Corinthians 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

1 Corinthians 14:7 ὅμως τὰ ἄψυχα φωνὴν διδόντα, εἴτε αὐλός, εἴτε κιθάρα, ἐὰν διαστολὴν τοῖς φθόγγοις μὴ δῷ, πῶς γνωσθήσεται τὸ αὐλούμενον ἢ τὸ κιθαριζόμενον; 8 καὶ γὰρ ἐὰν ἄδηλον φωνὴν σάλπιγξ δῷ, τίς παρασκευάσεται εἰς πόλεμον;

Note that in 14:7, Paul used a singular φωνὴν to denote the sound of the a pipe or a harp that actually would be playing multiple tones (τοῖς φθόγγοις; which is a different Greek word in the plural). The Greek word rendered "sounds" in 14:7 (φθόγγοις) is not the same Greek word rendered "sound" in 14:8 (φωνὴν).

Paul is not teaching in 14:8 that the trumpet is playing only one tone; if he were, he would be contradicting the very thing that he just taught in 14:7.

There are undoubtedly examples in the LXX that would show the same singular use of φωνὴν to denote what in actuality comprised multiple discrete sounds that were heard.

If you want to see such examples, I'll take the time to show you them, but I think that I have already made the point.

 

[Aaron]

Actually, it is very common for a Scripture writer to use a singular noun as a collective singular.

It's common in everyday English, too, but generally not when side by side. Galatians 3:16 .

The point is that the description of musical instruments in visions and in the types and shadows of the law are metaphorical. Corporeal man has not even conceived of the things of heaven. Thinking that there are harps and trumpets and music as we know it, and that God is affected by the sounds we make on them is puerile and superstitious. And you're missing the point of the law, and the whole purpose of music.

We have not come to the mountain that can be touched. We have come to Mount Zion. It cannot be perceived with the senses.

No, this is not a future thing. Read the Scripture.

you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering​

Music, as you are talking about it, is a corporeal thing. It is a human thing. It was made for man, and it takes man to make it. Forget about the harps in heaven. If there are machines in heaven, they're nothing like you've ever seen, and the singing is nothing like you've ever heard or will hear in earth. Your appeals to your superstitious notions of them are in vain.

Musical instruments were not employed in the synagogues. They were not employed in worship by the early church, and the Early Fathers with one accord shunned them as relics of Judaism.

There's no music in Hell, and we've falsified your insistence that anything used in idol worship is automatically demonic. You had to concede that ol' Neb might have used some good things in idol worship, which, as you pointed out, is really the worship of demons. And do you know how you arrived at that concession? By applying musicology. The description of an instrument is musicology, however elementary.

You can't escape it.

 

[Hark]

Many Christians may believe that there is alien life in outer space even though they believe that the Bible does not say anything about the existence of such beings.

Some of those same Christians may yet hold that there is no such thing as demonic instrumental music because they believe that the Bible does not say anything about the existence of such music.

Would it not be inconsistent to hold both of these positions?

If there were aliens in outer space or even life itself, what is the point of its existence in relations to Jesus Christ on earth when in the end, He will make a new heaven & a new earth where righteousness dwells? So how is that fair to any life out there when that will affect them as much as sin did when man had fallen with no relations or knowledge to give glory to Jesus Christ? If they were to have no knowledge & we have no knowledge of them per scripture, then there are no aliens in outer space.

Now in regards to music; if they have influence by means of sinful or carnal lyrics, then I can see the Lord judging that kind of music, but if there were demonic instrumental ones alone, surely He would have pointed it out in His words as judging it as such to warn & protect His saints, would He not?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

It's common in everyday English, too, but generally not when side by side. Galatians 3:16 .

The point is that the description of musical instruments in visions and in the types and shadows of the law are metaphorical. Corporeal man has not even conceived of the things of heaven. Thinking that there are harps and trumpets and music as we know it, and that God is affected by the sounds we make on them is puerile and superstitious. And you're missing the point of the law, and the whole purpose of music.

We have not come to the mountain that can be touched. We have come to Mount Zion. It cannot be perceived with the senses.

No, this is not a future thing. Read the Scripture.

you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering​

Music, as you are talking about it, is a corporeal thing. It is a human thing. It was made for man, and it takes man to make it. Forget about the harps in heaven. If there are machines in heaven, they're nothing like you've ever seen, and the singing is nothing like you've ever heard or will hear in earth. Your appeals to your superstitious notions of them are in vain.

Musical instruments were not employed in the synagogues. They were not employed in worship by the early church, and the Early Fathers with one accord shunned them as relics of Judaism.

There's no music in Hell, and we've falsified your insistence that anything used in idol worship is automatically demonic. You had to concede that ol' Neb might have used some good things in idol worship, which, as you pointed out, is really the worship of demons. And do you know how you arrived at that concession? By applying musicology. The description of an instrument is musicology, however elementary.

You can't escape it.

Actually, no, I did not concede that Neb. used good things in idol worship. I do not believe that he did. I only discussed it using a hypothetical statement beginning with "if" because you posed it as a possibility.

There is a huge dispute over what the phrase "all kinds of music" means in Daniel 3. A common understanding of that phrase is to signify that there were many other instruments used that were not specifically listed. That understanding would mean the argument that you are trying to make from that passage is totally invalidated.

Moreover, the word for "sound" is singular in Daniel 3:5 and all the other references to music in that passage and some, perhaps, many understand that mean nothing more than a "signal blast," which according to your previous statements would not be music at all.

In any case, to eliminate any possible misunderstanding going forward, I did not concede at all that Neb. used good things in his idol worship in Daniel 3.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Music, as you are talking about it, is a corporeal thing. It is a human thing. It was made for man, and it takes man to make it.

The Bible does not teach what you claim about music. God did not make music for man--He made it for His eternal glory.

God commanded man to play music on stringed instruments to give to Him the glory due His name in worship.

Psalm 33:2 Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. 3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.

These divine commands were not for the glory of man--they were made to give God the glory that was (and is) due Him.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

If there were aliens in outer space or even life itself, what is the point of its existence in relations to Jesus Christ on earth when in the end, He will make a new heaven & a new earth where righteousness dwells? So how is that fair to any life out there when that will affect them as much as sin did when man had fallen with no relations or knowledge to give glory to Jesus Christ? If they were to have no knowledge & we have no knowledge of them per scripture, then there are no aliens in outer space.

Now in regards to music; if they have influence by means of sinful or carnal lyrics, then I can see the Lord judging that kind of music, but if there were demonic instrumental ones alone, surely He would have pointed it out in His words as judging it as such to warn & protect His saints, would He not?

I do not believe that there are aliens in outer space. I used that comparison to make a point.

No, God has not given us an exhaustive catalog of the evil activities of Satan and his demons in defiling God's universe. They do so both by corrupting good things that God has made and by originating evil combinations of good things that God never intended to be combined in those ways.

 

[Hark]

I do not believe that there are aliens in outer space. I used that comparison to make a point.

I understood that.

No, God has not given us an exhaustive catalog of the evil activities of Satan and his demons in defiling God's universe. They do so both by corrupting good things that God has made and by originating evil combinations of good things that God never intended to be combined in those ways.

Are you referring to only instrumental music? Because I was. So if you are also, then you need to show source or better yet scripture warning us about instrumental music when it is bad.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Are you referring to only instrumental music? Because I was. So if you are also, then you need to show source or better yet scripture warning us about instrumental music when it is bad.

I disagree that I need to show Scripture "warning us about instrumental music when it is bad."

Where does the Bible teach that God has said that all possible combinations of musical elements that can be made to make instrumental music are all good and all pleasing to Him?

Much more importantly, where does the Bible teach that He will accept the offering to Him in worship whatever combinations of instrumental musical elements humans decide to make and think are good?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Are you referring to only instrumental music? Because I was. So if you are also, then you need to show source or better yet scripture warning us about instrumental music when it is bad.

Scripture reveals that God ordained the bringing to an end the noise of the stringed instruments of the king of Babylon:

Isaiah 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

 

[Lodic]

It does not matter what it seems to have to do with; it is of voodoo music--it is to be rejected.

No, it is not true that the music of some of our popular hymns had their roots in tavern songs. That is a false claim that has been refuted.

There are other valid reasons to reject instrumental music, including the content of any lyrics that it may be used to accompany. Those things are not the subject of this thread.

Specifically what music is to be rejected? All Blues and Rock music? What about when music forms merge? Right now, the only music that I know to reject is just music that I don't like. I like some of Louis Armstrong's songs (especially "What a Wonderful World"), and some of the old Blues songs from the 50's & 60's. I also enjoy some "soft" rock from the 60's & 70's. Are these types of music you suggest should be rejected from voodoo origins? Maybe I'm completely missing your point.

[EDIT] Just looking at your response to @Hark (#70) regarding stringed instruments, and now I'm wondering. Are you suggesting that music from all stringed instruments is to be rejected?

I'm glad to learn that the claim of popular hymns having their roots in tavern songs is false. Thank you for sharing that.

 

[tyndale1946]

Scripture reveals that God ordained the bringing to an end the noise of the stringed instruments of the king of Babylon:

Isaiah 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Well I don't play any musical instrument but I do sing a little to my Lord and I don't see getting to Heaven where Gabriel is blowing his trumpet, while David is on the harp, Aaron on the organ, (no not our Aaron), Peter on the piano and who know what else is used to make up an Angelic Band, while Jesus leads the Hallelujah Chorus!... Then again... NAH!... I do like the comment I heard a preacher make... Its HEAVEN people!... Not an eternal glorified church service!... That get you thinking?... Brother Glen

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Specifically what music is to be rejected? All Blues and Rock music? What about when music forms merge? Right now, the only music that I know to reject is just music that I don't like. I like some of Louis Armstrong's songs (especially "What a Wonderful World"), and some of the old Blues songs from the 50's & 60's. I also enjoy some "soft" rock from the 60's & 70's. Are these types of music you suggest should be rejected from voodoo origins? Maybe I'm completely missing your point.

[EDIT] Just looking at your response to @Hark (#70) regarding stringed instruments, and now I'm wondering. Are you suggesting that music from all stringed instruments is to be rejected?

I'm glad to learn that the claim of popular hymns having their roots in tavern songs is false. Thank you for sharing that.

No, of course, I am not suggesting that music from all stringed instruments is to be rejected. God has repeatedly commanded that they be used to give Him the glory due Him in corporate worship.

Concerning when music forms merge, Scripture teaches the principle that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Taking something evil and combining it with something else is not something that is acceptable to God.

Syncretistic worship has defiled and plagued God's people throughout much of their history. We must not use any kinds of instrumental music (whether it is accompanying singing or not) in worship where there is any question about God's accepting it.

 

[Lodic]

No, of course, I am not suggesting that music from all stringed instruments is to be rejected. God has repeatedly commanded that they be used to give Him the glory due Him in corporate worship.

Concerning when music forms merge, Scripture teaches the principle that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Taking something evil and combining it with something else is not something that is acceptable to God.

Syncretistic worship has defiled and plagued God's people throughout much of their history. We must not use any kinds of instrumental music (whether it is accompanying singing or not) in worship where there is any question about God's accepting it.

What exactly are you calling for Christians to do regarding instrumental music then? Do a lot of research to make sure the music doesn't have voodoo origins? Getting back to Armstrong's "Wonderful World", I truly can't imagine any problem with that, nor a lot of other easy-listening blues.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

What exactly are you calling for Christians to do regarding instrumental music then? Do a lot of research to make sure the music doesn't have voodoo origins? Getting back to Armstrong's "Wonderful World", I truly can't imagine any problem with that, nor a lot of other easy-listening blues.

The church that I am a member of and many other churches never have accepted CCM or any other use of rock-based or rock-influenced or rock-like music in any form. All churches should completely reject the use of such music in any form in any aspect of their churches.

 

[Aaron]

In any case, to eliminate any possible misunderstanding going forward, I did not concede at all that Neb. used good things in his idol worship in Daniel 3.

Yes you did.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Yes you did.

Think what you want. Whatever you think that I did earlier, I am unambiguously saying to you now that I do not believe that Neb. used good things to worship his idol.

 

[Aaron]

The Bible does not teach what you claim about music. God did not make music for man--He made it for His eternal glory.

God commanded man to play music on stringed instruments to give to Him the glory due His name in worship.

Psalm 33:2 Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. 3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.

These divine commands were not for the glory of man--they were made to give God the glory that was (and is) due Him.

And just like the commands to offer flour, incense and the blood of animals, none of these 'commands' are repeated by Christ or any Apostle. OT forms of worship are not true worship. They're allegorical, and symbols of true things.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

OT forms of worship are not true worship. They're allegorical, and symbols of true things.

To make such an interpretation work, people have to deny that there will be a 1000-year millennial kingdom of Christ on the earth in which He will reign from Jerusalem. Such a hermeneutic causes people to dismiss glorious passages as "metaphorical" about the future earthly worship of God that will exalt Him through the use of musical instruments in ways that He has never received glory in human history.

I will never agree with people who hold such views.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. 19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. 20 So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.

Once these former occultists were saved, they burned all of their books about their occult practices. They did not care that those books were worth an enormous amount of money.

These new believers exemplify what God wants Christians to do with all the music of the occult that they have allowed in their lives and their churches. God calls all of His people to destroy all such materials from their lives.

After I became a believer, I destroyed a vast amount of rock and other music that I owned in which I was immersed prior to my salvation. May God grant to many others that they would turn away completely from this demonic music and give Him the glory that is due His name by doing so.